Paige Failing?

Interesting observations.

 

Personally I am looking into Seminaries for what they offer in biblical Counseling. If I were to attend Seminary based upon their counseling program then Southwestern would not even make the list considering they offer Physiological courses and for the most part denies the Calvinistic faith that SBTS affirms. If I were to choose a Seminary based upon distance from home or job then SWBTS would be an obvious choice.

[message snipped at the request of the poster]

It appears SBTS and SEBTS have taken the lead in Southern Baptist Seminaries ... I hope SW comes back.

Damion Byrd

[ September 14, 2005, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

Really interesting ...

 

I'm troubled by that reply, but for different reasons it seems.

While I'm no fan of Freudian Psychotheraphy or any of the host of humanistic theories that followed him, I'm also disapppointed to see that Dr. Patterson intends to move the program at SW away from its traditional emphases. NOT because there is something better about the "integrated" model, but because it was a program after which students were qualified to sit either for their LPC or PA.

I know Drs. Babler and Patterson would likely disagree, but the "biblical" approach they advocate is not too unlike the cognitive and cognitive-behavior therapies that have moved to the forefront of "secular" therapy in the last decade or so. Seems two programs is a duplication of resources.

But that's a side issue and not really relevant to the larger disappointment that those Christians, particulalry in Texas, called to work in the field of counseling and psychology (whether as an LPC with a private practice or a PA ministering to MHMR patients at a county group home) will have to turn elsewhere and to a truly "secular" envirnoment for their training.

Closing the counseling (LPC) program at SW (or de-emphasizing it until it shrinks to the point that it must be closed) implicity declares that the mental health industry somehow does not need or "deserve" any Christian influences working inside of it.

Didn't Jesus make a couple of statements about salt and light...

 

Is that high for a seminary? I'm asking because I'm not sure if people are less apt to transfer out of a seminary than they are out of a college, since there are more colleges than seminaries. </font>[/QUOTE]It's even MORE remarkable for a seminary because you have married men and women in seminaries, with family situations that can change, and a multiplicity of part-time students and programs. Unless you're comparing to a commuter school, these numbers are good.
You bring up transfering out. That is not as big of an issue as people dropping out, taking a semester off for financial or other reasons, etc. Even if you take a semester off and come back the next year, you are not considered to have been "retained."

 

Dr. Patterson pastored for thirty years including Associate Pastor at First Baptist in Dallas for 15 years. He served as the President of the Criswell College during the same 15 year period.

 

I think it's unfortunate that educators with apparently very little personal experience with family counseling naively assume that all psychology and secular therapy is bad. I hope they don't some day make that assumption about physical health. I wouldn't want my doctor to be a biblical physician. IMO some of these educators are really throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

I think it's unfortunate that educators with apparently very little personal experience with family counseling naively assume that all psychology and secular therapy is bad. I hope they don't some day make that assumption about physical health. I wouldn't want my doctor to be a biblical physician getting all of his/her surgical techniques from the Scriptures. IMO some of these educators are really throwing out the baby with the bath water. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Patsfan,

A few questions for you,

Do you think the word of God is fully sufficient to counsel man and his mental problems? If you do think it is able then why would a person spend years in school learning about what man thinks about mental problems. The Bible is very clear that man's ideas are folly and "right in his own eyes." Proverbs 12:15, 14:12, 16:2, 21:2 & Jeremiah 17:9-10. I could list a lot more verses, but I will stop there.

ALL of mans problems, mental or physical are from lack of love (sin.)

Do you think drugs are a good way to bring people to wholeness in Christ? Is not your relationship with Christ the most important thing? Name for me 5 things that physiology does that biblical counseling can't do?

Now on to the next subject. My wife recently gave birth to our little girl at home, without any drugs and without a knife being placed to her body. The numbers for having a c-section goes through the roof when you enter a hospital ... why? Because they hook up wires, ivy’s, put drugs in you so that your body overloads and does not know what to do. Then guess what happens the baby can't come out because the mother is too tensed up to allow what God created to happen. So then the doctor gets concerned (fearful) and says lets open her up and then the baby is cut out. Am I saying C-sections are not always necessary? No, just pointing out severe a flaw in the medical field which comes from man’s own way of thinking. Does it make sense to say that a Doctor has spent 10 years studying on medical research ... so he must know what he is doing!!! Not always.

I spend 5 years of my young life hooked up to Paxil and Prozac … trying to make my unexplained anger go away. Recently that fire within me has been nearly put out. Why? Because I realized that the only problem I had was a heart problem. The anger came from a root problem in my heart and those when my body would be sick or hurt, or not able to get the paxil (it needed?) then I would lash out. Because that’s what was in my heart. Someone has a stroke (like my grandmother did) and then all the sudden they find themselves being angry all the time and lashing out at the people they love. Why? Because it was in their hearts before the stroke and from an abundance of the heart your mouth will speak.

Please respond I want to hear what you have to say about this matter.

 

Convicted,

In many ways I think that you are right.

Our eight children were born at home for the same reasons you mentioned.

I've never taken drugs to curb my anger, but I know that without daily Bible reading and prayer, I am angry, and with it I am able to ward off Satan's attack.

Without Bible reading I have a constant low grade irritability that is ready to explode. With Bible reading I have "moments" of attack that I can ward off through the power of the Spirit and God's Word. Sometimes I still sin, but my life is much more peaceable with God's Word than without it.

However, I am sure that there are some folks who do have chemical imbalances that may need intervention. But then, it might be good to ask if there is a cause for the chemical imbalance? Is it spiritual?

I think we are starting to discover that what we think and feel does impact our behavior. So perhaps spiritual/emotional issues are causing the chemical imbalance.

Interesting post. Thanks.

 

Personally I think its the "sufficiency of Scripture" debate is a red herring in the counseling discussions.

While I agree the Bible is sufficient to provide us with the answers for many problems in life the Bible is:

a. not a science text book
b. not able to prescribe various medicines

 

preachinjesus:

by your statement you have granted psychology the same status as science and medicine. Perhaps I am ignorant on the issue, but I do not believe psychology is an exact science if a science at all.

 

Psychology is a social science and in many ways different than traditional science. IMO it's naive to totally discount the knowledge that it provides, kind of reckless, I think. We don't reject many other kinds of knowledge, just because it isn't in the Bible. If Christians are grounded in God's Word they should not be so afraid of psychology.

 

Back to the original question about SWBTS's enrollment - I suspect that an earlier poster had it right when he said that some SWBTS students probably aren't returning because they've found that their moderate theology won't allow them to accept the new direction of theology and preaching at SWBTS. For those students, Truett, Richmond, or any number of other seminaries would be a better choice for them.

I also agree with Bob's post from earlier. It is an alarming trend, but many folks are entering full-time (and often quite large) ministry positions with little or no divinity training. Just think about the number of Music Ministers you know who actually took one course of divinity training. Of those who did, how many of them actually went all the way and got their degree? Among those who received degrees, did they do any language training or did they just get an M.A. instead of an M.Div. It is a fair sad state of affairs in the church today I'm afraid - way too many churches are completely unconcerned about the amount of divinity training amongst pastors and especially amongst staff ministers. Of course, this trend had become all the rage because churches are consistently downplaying the importance of Christian doctrine in favor of a much more pragmatic, "your best life now" approach.

How does all this relate to Dr. P? I know Dr. P personally - I was a student at SEBTS during his presidency, he had preached in my pulpit, etc. If there's one thing I know about that man, it is that he is all for raising the standard. Frankly, I think a lot of (prospective) ministers are just plain lazy, so when they are left to choose between more rigorous study or a cushy, high-paying staff position with little or no educational requirements, more often than not they're going to choose the later. I think that may have something to do with what some have witnessed at SWBTS and a host of other seminaries.

 

Where do I sign up for one of these cushy, high-paying staff positions?

 

He didn't. You suspect incorrectly.

 

Todd,

Point on. At this juncture in Dr. Patterson's tenure, the moderates are abandoning ship. In the next 2-4 years you will see record enrollment at SWBTS. An emphasis on expository preaching, sound, correctly conservative theology and soulwinning will breathe new life into the sleeping giant. It will be great to see.

Dr. Patterson, when he first became President of SEBTS several years ago, told my wife and I (prospective student)that SEBTS had single handedly been the source of death for multitudes of churches on the east coast, due to the theologically bankrupt students it was sending out to Pastor. He point blank told me that he wanted to see that trend reversed. I believe he succeeded, and I believe the ship is being righted at SWBTS. What many view as "failing", most likely is part of Dr. Patterson's long range plan to build one of the greatest seminaries in the world. And with that agenda, the bleeding heart liberals come out of the wood work to cry foul.

 

If only life were so simple....

The few remaining moderate professors either resigned, retired, or were not renewed in the last years of Hemphill's presidency and the first year of Patterson's.

It might help some sleep at night to believe that SWBTS' declining enrollment is due to the moderate students (who knew there were still so many around) leaving to go to moderate seminaries, but such simplistic thinking just doesn't jibe with the facts.

More students from the east coast have stayed home to attend SEBTS and SBTS than did so in 70s and 80s, and students from the deep south have remained loyal to NOBTS throughout it all. SWBTS' potential pool of students is smaller now than at any time in its history. None of that means that Dr. Patterson is "failing," but I wonder why some are so paranoid of an honest assessment of the situation.

Further, it would be insulting to Drs. Fish, McDow, Garrett, Tolar, Vaughan, and at least a dozen more to say that SWBTS will only NOW know "correct" theology or emphasize evangelism if it weren't such an utterly ridiculous claim.

I sincerely hope that logic and argumentation displayed in some of these posts is not indicative of what one can expect to be taught at SWBTS in the future. It would be most unfortunate for the convention's largest seminary (FTE) to produce ministers with such inept critical thinking skills.