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Featured Papias Quote and Early Date of Revelation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by asterisktom, Oct 9, 2021.

  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Because you have to have political power to kill someone?
     
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  2. Michael Hollner

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    'Those of us alive now still have to enter into the full richness of this promise'

    And how do we do this? Are you 'Kingdom Theology'?

    'I take the thousand years, BTW, as not being that actual length'

    How many years does a thousand years equal? Scriptural references?
     
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  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm pretty sure I'm on Tom's ignore list now. Alas. :eek: He called it a "vicious smear" in Post #12 when I suggested that a Church of Christ preacher (pastored 9 of their churches) might believe in baptismal regeneration.

    And of course he never answered my points about his quotes from said preacher, who mixed up actual quotes from Papias (which didn't exist) with quotes from men who hundreds of years later said Papias said something.

    I'm not going to miss any sleep worrying that Tom will answer, or even apologize for accusing me of lying. Nope, guess I am the bad guy here, and I'm content with that. Y'all have a fun thread. :)
     
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  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Classic academic-type of opinion divorced from the crooked timber of real life.
    You don't always need "political power" to kill.
     
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  5. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    There are no Scriptural references for the length of the "thousand years", but there is the indication at the beginning of Revelation that this book conveys truths through symbols.
     
  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    We do this by dying. Then we will see clearly.

    You put 'Kingdom Theology' in quotes so I assume you are referring to one of several uses or misuses of the term. All I mean is that the Kingdom of Christ is now and it will never end.
     
  7. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I see; When you do your study it is in-depth research. When I do mine it is an out-of-touch academic exercise. And I would say I have seen more crooked timber than you have.

    Shall we have real discussion or are you just going to vent. Earlier posts of yours on a different topic actually had interesting content and some backing. This is just a drive-by pound-and-send.
     
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Now, that one's a beaut. Let's read it carefully:

    "There are no Scriptural references for the LENGTH of the 'THOUSAND YEARS'".

    There is just nothing anyone can do at this point except quit. I quit.
     
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Yes, you do that.

    But for anyone else who misses the context of my comment, my point was there is no Scriptural references proving that this phrase was meant to be taken literally as a thousand years. I, in fact, alluded to a verse that strongly suggested the opposite.

    As expected, George is reading for ammunition not content, or he would have seen this.
     
    #89 asterisktom, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  10. Michael Hollner

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    'There are no Scriptural references for the length of the "thousand years"'

    Well then, I would say a thousand years in scripture is a thousand years then.

    'but there is the indication at the beginning of Revelation that this book conveys truths through symbols'

    An indication? No thanks sir, I will stick with the scriptures as my indicator.

    'the Kingdom of Christ is now'

    Where is Christ reigning now on earth other than in the hearts of men? Has Christ already set his feet on the Mount of Olives and come back secretly to rule the world (Zech 14:4) KJV?

    'We do this by dying. Then we will see clearly'

    That I can agree on.
     
  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I appreciate that point of agreement.

    I am referring to Scripture, Rev. 1:1:

    "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (ESEMASEN) it by his angel unto his servant John:"

    The book is filled with SIGNS. The Greek word ESEMASEN can be translated "signified" (KJV, NIV), but to do so misses the main thrust of the word, namely that John was writing about actual signs, symbols. William Hendriksen wrote this in "More than Conquerors" (p.38):

    "The entire book [of Revelation] consists of changing scenes like these, of moving pictures and active symbols."...

    "N.B. the first verse of the book 'and he made it known by means of signs (or symbols)'."


    Surely you recognize that there are signs and symbols in this book? Or do we imagine, for instance, a giant angel with giant legs, one on land the other sea? Numbers can be symbols too. Otherwise we have the cattle of Hill #1001 owned by someone other than God. Please consider that the thousand of Revelation is also symbolic.

    Yes, ever since the Parousia Christ has been reigning. He is reigning "in the midst of enemies". This was foretold in many places in the Bible. One is Matt. 21:42 - 45

    "42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes? 43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.” 45When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them."

    This stone that falls on them is also the stone that falls from Heaven crushing the multi-metaled statue of Daniel 2:34ff:

    "34As you watched, a stone was cut out,d but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth."


    and

    "44In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever."

    So, from these passages we can see that:
    1.The Jewish leaders and teachers (builders) rejected the stone.
    2. The kingdom was taken away from those Jewish leaders that Christ was speaking to.
    3.It was given to others producing righteous fruit. This event presupposes the same time period as #2. Scripture knows no spiritual Interregnum. This was in the past, "in the days of those kings".
    4.Those on whom the stone falls become like chaff on the threshing floor. (Sim. to the warnings of John the Baptist).
    5. This kingdom fills the whole Earth.
    6.This Kingdom never ends.
     
    #91 asterisktom, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not that I would like to debate you, but to show that perhaps someone has the wrong information.

    According to Irenaeus, our earliest witness, Papias was "a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, a man of primitive times," who wrote a volume in "five books" (haer. 5.33.4; quoted by Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.39.1). Eusebius already doubted the reality of a connection between Papias and the apostle John on the grounds that Papias himself in the preface to his book distinguished the apostle John from John the presbyter and seems to have had significant contact only with John the presbyter and a certain Aristion (Hist. Eccl. 3.39.3-7). Eusebius' skepticism was no doubt prompted by his distaste - perhaps a recently acquired distaste (Grant 1974) - for Papias' chiliasm and his feeling that such a theology qualified Papias for the distinction of being "a man of exceedingly small intelligence" (Hist. Eccl. 3.39.13). Nevertheless Eusebius' analysis of the preface is probably correct; and his further point that Papias' chiliasm put him to the same camp as the Revelation of John is surely relevant. It is notable that Eusebius, in spite of his desire to discredit Papias, still places him as early as the reign of Trajan (A.D. 98-117); and although later dates (e.g., A.D. 130-140) have often been suggested by modern scholars, Bartlet's date for Papias' literary activity of about A.D. 100 has recently gained support (Schoedel 1967: 91-92; Kortner 1983: 89-94, 167-72, 225-26).
    taken from: Fragments of Papias
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I posted the above so that others may see that the premise of the OP may not be factually based.
     
  14. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I read comments similar to this too, though not this one. But this is not what I was writing of. History books are always written by the winners, hence the aspersions on Papias and his veracity. At any rate I am done with this topic, at least the Papias part of my OP.
     
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I used that which is well documented to show your timing is off, and therefore your premise becomes frail.

    The Jews did not kill the apostle John. Though he suffered as a martyr, he was not killed but died of being old.
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The dating of the Revelation is not questionable.
    According to the oldest tradition [in Iren., Adv. Haer. 5.30.3] Rev was written toward the end of the reign of Domitian (81-96). The book's own testimony indicates that it originated in the province of Asia in a time of severe oppression of Christians, which is most readily conceivable under Domitian. In the letters included in Rev, persecutions by the officials are expected (2:10), the blood of the martyrs has already flowed (2:13; 6:9), the whole of Christianity is threatened with a fearful danger (3:10): the immediate prospect is for the outbreak of a general persecution of Christians throughout the Roman Empire. In 17:6 John sees the harlot who is Babylon-Rome drunk on the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses of Jesus (cf. 6:10; 16:6; 18:24; 19:2). In 20:4 participation in the thousand-year reign is promised to the martyrs who have been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and for the word of God, and who have not worshiped the beast and his image and have not accepted his sign on their forehead and in their hand, i.e., those who have refused divine honors to the emperor (13:4, 12 ff; 14:9, 11; 16:2; 19:20). Christianity has collided with the state and with the state religion, the Christ cult with the imperial cult. In the interest of faith, Rev raises passionate objections to Rome and the imperial cult. That corresponds to the situation under Domitian.

    Also favoring the end of the first century as the time of origin of Rev is the fact that according to 2:8-11, the church of Smyrna has been persevering for a long time, while according to Polycarp (Phil 11:3), at the time of Paul it did not even exist; and 3:17 describes the community of Laodicea as rich, while this city had been almost completely destroyed by an earthquake in A.D. 60/61.

    taken from: The Book of Revelation
     
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    The Scriptural reference for a thousand years is, a thousand years. No honest person believes the entire book of Revelation is symbols.
     
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    In other words, you can't think of a good response so you either ignore the posts or ignore the argument.
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Which war with Rome are you thinking of?
     
  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    The First Jewish War, 66–73
     
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