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Partial Preterism: A doctrinal smokescreen for the future harlot system?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gavin, Mar 1, 2003.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    John wrote an entire book of prophecy. Paul wrote two letters about prophecy. He mentions it many times throughout his letters. Peter mentions it. Jude mentions it. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all record the longest answer Jesus gave to a question.

    In Hebrews 5:11-6:3, the author scolded them for a lack of understanding and a need for the basics again. He then points out three basic doctrines that they should know well: salvation, church ordinances, and end times.

    It sounds like a very important issue among Christ and his followers. It doesn't surprise me that amills, postmills, and preterists all try to dismiss it as unimportant. :rolleyes:

    Incidentally, van Impe is hardly a serious representative of premillenialism. He is also pro-catholic. Therefore, we can lump him in the same groups as all the other liberals.
     
  2. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    It is impossible for it to be a picture of heaven. In Revelation 5:9-10, we see the song of redemption. Then it says that these kings and priests will reign on the EARTH. What is so amazing is that the scene takes place in heaven. So, you have saints in heaven being told they will reign on the earth.

    I wish Scripture could speak for itself. :rolleyes:
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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  4. Gavin

    Gavin New Member

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    ISA 24:23 Then the moon will be disgraced And the sun ashamed; For the Lord of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.

    ISA 32:1 Behold, a king will reign in righteousness, And princes will rule with justice.

    JER. 23:5 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

    MIC 4:7 I will make the lame a remnant, And the outcast a strong nation; So the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on, even forever.

    LUKE 1:32-33 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

    ROM 15:12 And again, Isaiah says: "There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope."

    REV.5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

    REV 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

    REV 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

    REV 22:5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

    Dear Preach,

    Above are some further references to Christ, the 24 elders and the saints ruling upon the earth.
    The reign would seem to be connected to "the earth", "Mt. Zion", and earthly time period of "a thousand years" as well as "forever". The future reign would seem to extend into the cosmos quite a bit more than Amil limitations of the reign to "up in heaven" or "in His church" or "in the church ordinaces". His reign will not be limited to the present day church services, church cathedrals or the religious reveries and meditations of His people. Messiah's Millennial reign over mortals on this earth will be earthly and political yet it will also be the springboard for these mortals to be part of a spiritual Kingdom that will be eternal. The nature of the Millennium as a transition zone from the earthly to the heavenly is Jacob's Ladder at work. The gnostic mindset cannot understand this at all. The Hellenised mind has God and goodness barricaded up in heaven in a box. And earth and badness boxed up down here on earth. Gnosticism never allows the heavenly realm and the earthly realm to intermingle. That is the problem with the Jews in their present pre-repentance mindset. They cannot conceive of God coming down here in this dirty realm and being with us. God is One, and that One is up in heaven. He wouldn't come down here! Liberal churchmen are caught in the same gnostic web under the spell of the same pagan gnostic spirits. Hence the denial of the deity of Christ coming down from heaven in the incarnation. And hence the denial of the resurrection of the body Christ to ascend up into heaven. These passages "out of the box" are "impossible" according to them. Also denied is His coming Millennial rule in a spiritual body upon the earth. Do you see the pattern here? A religious spirit locks God up in heaven preventing Him from coming into His creation to redeem it, to rule over it and restore it, and to take mortal men out of it back to heaven again. The religious spirits that try to stop the placement of Jacob's ladder as a bridge between heaven and earth are like the trolls in the children's storybook. They are forever seeking to stop Christ and His saints from crossing the classic bridge between heaven and earth. This is religious gnosticism. Nasty business.

    Blessings,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/millennium.htm
     
  5. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    The woman in Revelation 17 identified as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH must have reference to something that existed around John's day since he was writing of things "which must shortly come to pass." This obviously does not mean 2,000+ years in the future. Some Partial-Preterists believe the woman is Jerusalem, some Rome. In ageement with my Primitive Baptist brother, I am inclined to believe the former.
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Or, as has been demonstrated I don't know how many times, it could mean the nature in which things will happen. Since either could be the correct interpretation, you will have to go beyond mere word meanings and include other passages and of course, the surrounding context.
     
  7. Gavin

    Gavin New Member

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    Dear Preach,

    Or we could pick up the same ten horned beast of Rev. 17 and 18 in Daniel 7. The ten horns in Dan. 7 relate to the endtime division of the world into ten geo-political regions and have also been linked to the ten toes of image in Nebudchadnezzar's dream as recounted in Daniel 2. The Bible says that the smiting stone strikes the image on the feet, an endtime event. It then becomes a mountain/nation that takes up the whole world.

    "And in the days of those (ten) kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." -Dan.2:44

    This has never happened. It never happened in the early centuries. And it never happened in more modern times. The world continues to be a htchpotch of warring regions and nations. There has been no unity. Therefore this united kingdom has to be referring to the endtime and the coming Kingdom of Christ, the Millennial Kingdom. There is no other conclusion that can be reached. To deny this and say that the church has conquered all and established universal peace ravages reason. It just is not so. This time of global peace lies up ahead. And only Messiah will achieve this. Hallelujah!

    Blessings,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/millennium.htm
     
  8. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    The Partial-Preterist view allows the book of Revelation to have immediate relevance to those to whom it was written. The book seems to have served as a promise of soon deliverance to the early church. If the things contained in it were to find their fulfillment some 2,000+ years later, this promise is made void. In Revelation 22:10, John is told, "...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." Compare this with Daniel's being commanded to seal up his book because it would not be immediately fulfilled (Daniel 12:9). Those of other eschatological schools accuse the Partial-Preterists of "spiritualizing" the book when it is they who reinterpret the language to fit their own interpretation.
     
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Gavin, I love how non-premillenialists try to rob Christ of his glory by saying that something else will bring peace and hope to the world.

    The church was promised persecution and suffering. If the church is ruling, then you would think that it could determine who is persecuted. Not so according to Paul. I am going to mix some Pauline theology in this discussion for a second.

    All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

    Perhaps if Paul lived longer, he would have learned about the sovereignty of the church. It almost sounds catholic. You would think that a catholic established amill theology to give the "church" more power. Hey, wait a second...
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Primitive Baptist, the church was never delivered. I would like to recommend Foxe's book of martyrs.
     
  11. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Gavin's Quote:"On the net many partial preterists are saying that the "prince" of Dan. 9:26 and who makes a 7 year covenant in Dan.9:27 was Jesus of all people. Then 3.5 years later He stops the sacrifices because they are no longer necessary? Then He is supposed to have set up an abominable idol, the abomination of desolation way back then? Sounds bad."

    Gavin, the reason this sounds so bad to you is that you've got it all mixed up. Read the partial preterist interpretation of Daniel 9 carefully--as explained by a partial-preterist(try Philip Mauro)--then it will ring true with echoes of the New Testament, instead of some out-of-context modern peace treaty idea.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  12. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    The early church was delivered from the persecution imposed on them by the great whore, Jerusalem. Jesus said, "That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" (Luke 11:50) Paul wrote to the church at Rome, "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen." (Romans 16:20) The promise made to the church in Philadelphia was, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10) The church in Philadelphia does not exist today.

    world (Gr., oikoumene) - The Roman Empire (Luke 2:1)

    earth (Gr., ge) - land

    [ March 04, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  13. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Primitive Baptist, the ability to line verses up together doesn't mean anything. JW's do that also.

    The N.T. writers did not predict a 2,000 year gap. The expected fulfillment in their own lifetimes. But, since "no man knows the hour...", it was possible that a gap would exist.

    Now, I suggest burning your strawmen instead of recycling them.
     
  14. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    I have not presented any "strawmen" as you claim. The Scriptures are quite sufficient to prove what I am saying.
     
  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The doctrinal smokescreen as I see are not started by the Preterist as you brethren claim... But are started by those who don't believe biblical history!... Since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD every generation thought theirs was the last one... This had been going on infinitum and has not let up... There is no generation you can go to that end time belief is not a topic of concern. There have been battle upon battle down through the centuries against Gods people... Satan has always been at his post... And you can ask any of those down through the centuries and they knew who exactly the Anti-Christ was in their generation.

    Your end times madness as some call it get you people like Jim Jones of the peoples temple... Anyone for some coolaid!... David Koresh... The wacko from waco... Burn baby burn... And Marshall Applewhite... Beam me to the Hale Bop... These also believed in the end times and conviced their gullible followers of the same.

    That is what all these millenial theologies will get you... Nutcases... And you can trace them all the way from history... And if you don't believe it... You don't know your history... You just see those in our century but many a false religion has been started by those holding to we have the answer follow us. Many have dropped their Baptist roots because of it and started their own religion.

    You pre... post... and dispys make a good argument but unfortunately it has been made before and it is still causing confusion among Gods people... They don't know whether they are coming or going and they will buy anything on the market that hints of the sign of the times... When there is no sign... Soothsayers and fortunetellers look for signs... And the bible is against that.

    We preterist get accused because we understand that when John said repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand... We believe him and when Jesus Chirst appeared on the scene it became a reality. Thy kingdom come thy will be done... In Earth as it is In Heaven... Notice it does not say on earth... In earth is a special place and it is not terra firma... The kingdom of heaven is within you... We are made to sit as kings and priests in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

    You all can believe that someday Jesus Christ will set up a kingdom and we will all reign for a thousand years... You can flippy flop pre and post and dispys all around all you want to... But tell me one thing what do you go to church for if you are waiting for a kingdom to come? My Primitive Baptist Church IS the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven... NOW!... Ask any Primitive Baptist on here who is reigning in his church right now!... Brother Jeff... Primitive Baptist... Old School Baptist... Pinoybaptist... And any other PB I forgot they will tell you Jesus Christ... So you other brethren stop throwing a smokescreen around Gods people... Because when the smoke clears the Partial Preterist View is the only one that makes sense... The Bible as well as history will back it up!... Now prove that with yours... Excuse me you can't it hasn't come to pass yet :rolleyes: ... I believe this will liven up this discussion... Brother Glen can play hardball too [​IMG]

    [ March 05, 2003, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  16. Gavin

    Gavin New Member

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    Dear Tim, Primitive Baptist, and Brother Glen,

    As amil and partial preterist brothers I would like to understand where you are coming from, (and going to) a little better. Some have said emphasis on the endtime drama is as wacky as the guy from Waco, as sinister as the Hale Bopp cometteers, as nutty as Jim Jones and his kool-aid. So please give those of us who are premillennialists an idea of how you see the times to come. Is there anything to come according to your view? Are the future times empty of climactic meaning and drama, with no need to prepare, no betrayal and no climactic faithfulness issues for the church to face? Do the future years come to a climax and then a glorious resolution as we premillennialists believe? Or do they just roll on in an eastern mysticism style cycle with the ying and yang balance of church life and world life? Is the future just a never-ending ying and yang cycle inside the church of baptisms, weddings and funerals. Is that all there is? Does the future just continue to cycle on in the world as war and peace and more and more prosperity and poverty, pretty products and pollution, drugs and disease, capitalism and communnist rebellion etc. etc.? Is it "round and around and around we go and where we stop nobody knows?" Because that seems to be what I am hearing. Is this so?

    Yes there is no doubt I need to be enlightened further on partial-preterism and Amil and Postmil. But it seems that those holding these views are saying, "don't worry! Be happy!" There will not be a climax to this age. And if there is we just slip on into heaven. Is this right?

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Your brother in Christ,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/millennium.htm
     
  17. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    Partial Preterists allow the word of God to interpret itself. When a certain time frame is given for the fulfillment of a particular event (e.g. "this generation"), we do not insert unreasonable spaces of time. In Revelation 22:10, John was commanded, "...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." The next statement identifies the time of fulfillment to be very soon, for it says, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Compare this with Daniel's being commanded to seal up his book because it would not find soon fulfillment (Daniel 12:9). The book of Daniel was written during the sixth century B.C. Some time elapsed before the book of Daniel began to find fulfillment, but it was not 2,000+ years. This space of time was evidentally reckoned to be a long time. John, however, was told not to seal up his book because the time was near, but, according to Futurists, 2,000 years have elapsed and those things "which must shortly come to pass" in the first century are still unfulfilled. The Futurist position is a deformity at best.

    [ March 05, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    My question to you all is this what reason is there for Christ to come to earth and reign for a thousand years in an earthly kingdom?... Whether you are pre... post... Give us preterist and amils a reason for this :confused: ... If it was at hand it was just around the corner... Unless you believe one was never set up :confused: ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  19. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    The "this generation" of Matthew 24 is the generation that sees all the signs come to pass.

    I realize primitives don't like using the context of what Jesus said. Just include the previous verse.

    Preterism rises and falls on two primary positions:

    1. Revelation HAD to be written before the destruction of Jerusalem. Beside the ridiculousness of this position, it is totally unprovable.

    2. "This generation" in Matthew 24 means the generation Jesus spoke to. If the Scriptures were important in determining what the truth is, then they would see that it is the generation that witnesses the signs.

    Oh, on a much smaller note, they use lost Jews that were hired for Roman propaganda to interpret Scripture. Very reliable.
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    John The Revelator must have had a very confused audience as all can be proven by history... both secular and biblical!... Kinda like me telling you what happened in 70AD and using history to prove it!... They would really have been scratching their heads if John told those who heard him... All this won't happen for 2,000 plus years... The question remains why would they be concerned in what he said and why is he warning the future when his hearers were in dire circumstances?... Brother Glen :eek:
     
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