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Featured Pastor and Teacher, or Pastor/Teacher?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Aug 9, 2012.

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  1. They are two separate offices in the church.

    31.6%
  2. They both indicate the same office, the pastor/teacher.

    68.4%
  3. I don't know.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Never heardd of the MESS translation--but maybe it is (a mess). :smilewinkgrin:
     
  2. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire New Member

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    Thanks John. As I said pastor teacher is what I was taught years ago, and still buy into, but as I said I wouldn't be dogmatic about it. Here is a little from the NET Bible:
    13 sn Some interpreters have understood the phrase pastors and teachers to refer to one and the same group. This would mean that all pastors are teachers and that all teachers are pastors. This position is often taken because it is recognized that both nouns (i.e., pastors and teachers) are governed by one article in Greek. But because the nouns are plural, it is extremely unlikely that they refer to the same group, but only that the author is linking them closely together. It is better to regard the pastors as a subset of teachers. In other words, all pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. See ExSyn 284.​

    What I've seen in my life is all pastors are teachers. I know I used to teach Bible on Tuesday nights and doctrine on Thursday night and preach Sunday and Wednesday night.​
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The NET note is correct, except that I have no idea how they got the subset idea from the Greek grammar.​

    There have been numerous cases of pastors who did not teach, or at least not much. Some churches nowadays have a "preaching pastor" and an "administrative pastor." I believe Beauchamp Vick of Temple Baptist in Detroit years ago was much more of an administrator than a teacher, though he preached. Remember that "bishop" in 1 Tim. 3:1 can be translated "overseer," or maybe "superintendant." So when Paul described a pastor's qualifications, the first thing he thought of is the pastor as a leader and administrator, though he did list "apt to teach."​
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thanks everyone for participating in the poll and disussion. It went well and I was provoked to thought. I was somehwhat surprised to see that I was part of a small minority on the poll; or in other words that so many hold to the pastor/teacher paradigm instead of separate offices. That was a learning experience.

    We leave today for Seattle and then Thursday for Japan, so I may not be able to post again until next week. But if you still have comments, go ahead and post, and I'll get to them when I can.

    God bless. :type:
     
  5. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    I think this example is why I would say they are two differing, yet often very connected things. But if a church Hires an Administrative "Pastor" who does not practice, or have the ability to teach, then he is not really meeting the qualifications of "elder" (which I take to be interchanged with "Pastor"). So in such a case it might be more accurate to call that man an administrator, not a pastor, unless he does actually do some "teaching" whether that be groups, or one-to-one counseling.

    And there are certainly teachers in church who are not overseers/elders/pastors.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that BOTH offices are open and functioning within the Body today, but the point is that while all pastors would be gifted by the lord to be able to also teach, NOT all teachers are gifted to be the pastor!
     
  7. SovereignMercy

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    "I'm putting this in this forum since it is a matter of ecclesiology.

    There are scholars who disagree with me, including a Greek scholar friend, but no less than Daniel Wallace did his dissertation on this, coming out on Granville's side.

    (2) I see nowhere else in the NT where we might interpret that pastor and teacher are one and the same.

    (3) It seems very plain from other passages that there are teachers who are not pastors: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28, Heb. 5:12.

    Personally, I highly value many of my teachers (who were not pastors) in Bible college and seminary over the years, not to mention the many wonderful SS teachers I've had or known. I think it is "dissing" them to not include them as important to Christ's church."

    Since you brought this up under the doctrine of the church. First of all there are no such institutions as bible colleges or seminaries in the Bible in the church of Christ. They are the constructs of men to attempt to gain power, money and control. I hate to disappoint you but the same can be said for SS teachers and your Daniel Wallace whoever he may be. True teachers are shepherds and therefore pastors over the church of God. They are gifts God distributes according to His own will. Neither Jesus, Paul or any other inspired author ever mentioned "prominent" Greek or Hebrew scholars to prove their points either. MacArthur is so confused about the Gospel, why any believer would look to him or his right hand man, Phil Johnson for anything is beyond me.
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I totally disagree. There is the school of the prophets that Elisha taught, there is the OT "college" in Jerusalem (2 Chron. 35:22), there is Paul teaching daily in the philosophical school of Tyrannus (Acts 19:9), etc., etc. Your study of the Bible is incomplete and prejudiced by your presuppositions.

    The charge that a Bible college is an attempt to "gain power, money and control" is absurd on the face of it, and a vicious charge. I've taught in two Bible schools in Japan, and none of us, NONE OF US, had any of these as motives.

    Furthermore, over and over in the NT teachers are praised. Simply because they teach in a Sunday School or a Bible college doesn't diminish their contributions. They are still Bible teachers.
    This is very strange. First you agree with MacArthur about the pastor/teacher construct, then you say no one should look to him. Make up your confused mind! :smilewinkgrin:

    As for Paul and the other inspired authors never mentioning prominent Greek or Hebrew scholars, that's because they WERE prominent Greek and Hebrew scholars! That's pretty obvious, I think, otherwise how were they able to write fluently in Greek, being Jews (except for Luke)?
     
    #48 John of Japan, Aug 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2012
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