Pastor falling into sin

If a woman is forced at gun point to marry a man, is she "validly" married to him?

Or is it just possible that such a marriage was not a marriage in the first place because of this "impediment"?

If so, when a Catholic diocean marriage court were to see such a condition in a marriage, it is is then declared null and void. That is not a divorce but a simple recognition that the marriage was not valid in the first place.

There are other things that may render a marriage invalid, but this at least introduces you to the neuances of what an annulment is all about.

OK?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Here's a nota bene for the discussion at hand..

There are impediments that are assigned to marriage (See Summa Sup. 50:1 - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/505001.htm ), which - when extant - prohibit a marriage from ever taking place.

The parties to a marriage covenant must be baptized and free to contract a marriage, they must consent to an indissoluble bond and faithfulness (there is no room for a prenuptual agreement or preconceived ery), and they must be open to fertility: the fruit of the conjugal act.

A false intention regarding the goods of marriage listed above destroys the matter of consent, which is necessary to forge the marital bond.

Ecclesiastical tribunals commit themselves to arduous research in order to determine from the evidence at hand whether the marital bond ever "took", dependent upon the nature of the consent. Unfortunately, numerous couples are married in the positive law today with at least the intention of positively hindering the fruitfulness of the conjugal act, thus invalidating the possibility of the Christian sacrament of marriage.

It should also be noted that the legitimacy of children is not dependent upon the marital bond in the eyes of God but rather in the eyes of the positive law. Children previously born under annulled marriages are not illegitimate for this reason.

 

I keep hearing about this "fee" by non-Catholics, but none of the Catholics that I have ever spoken with who have sought an annulment have ever confirmed the claim. They have all told me that it either cost nothing, or that they paid a nominal (less than $100) amount to defray costs.

I know more than a few Catholics who have sought an annulment but were denied.

It seems a little odd to me that Catholics are crtiicized for deferring to the Church in this area, while non-Catholics are given a pass for simply running off and getting remarried.

Hey, you can just say "sorry", right?

 

The anullment process is rather long an thurough. I have been through it. For mine I paid I think 100$ or something like that. Certainly less than the cost of the time of the people involved. Though I have heard of one man paying $1500. This man however was quite wealthy. In my case the woman I had married had no intention of having children, unbeknowest to me. I wanted children (now have 7). Catholic teaching on marriage primarily says that you must believe in the permanence of marriage, committ yourself wholey to that person, be open to life. That is the contract that I was agreeing to. That is the contract that God respects for he commanded "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it" to all mankind. Now tell me, if a man sells you a "new" car and you sign all the paperwork believing that car to be "new" and it has been through a flood, is that contract valid. You tell me.

Blessings

 

cinna:

"I started this thread as I will really like to know what the Bible says. "

Therein lies the problem. Two "bible believing" pastors. Two views of what the Bible says. Both cannot be right. We also cannot assume that because one is not the other is when we have two different views. For there may be a third. And in this case their may be because I do not know the circumstances of his first marriage and cannot judge it. My statements regarding my adherence to #1 were based on the normative case with regard to a marriage. This is the case we must assume, that a marriage is properly entered in to. If we do not every marriage becomes a question mark and that is the case under which your church should operate. I believe I gave you the scripture that is most pertinent above. Read chapter 19 of Mathews Gospel. Also in Malachi I believe it is, it says "God hates divorce". There is something also for you to notice in most of the cases in scripture where God talks about divorce. Right after it I believe every time, he talks about children. It is the children who are most affected by divorce and that is why it must be vigorously opposed in the Christian religion.


Blessings

 

Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought annulment was
reserved for those who entered marriage under
false pretenses and for those who could not or
would not consumate the marriage. While I
suppose anyone who wanted out of a marriage
could twist things around to be included in these
ideas at any date, it seems to me that an annulment
would, by necessity, have to procede very early
in the marriage to be valid. Is that wrong?

 

Just a little more information.

Granting of an annullment does not necessarily free one to marry.

I know of someone who was granted an annullment along with the admonition that he could not remarry.

Apparently the condition that prevented a true marriage previously is still present.

 

W Putnam,

'I can count on on all my fingers and toes the couples that I know who were forced to marry on gun point. To be honest, I can't think of one.

What about the couple who have a child and then annull that marriage? It turns that child into a illigitimate child, that perhaps not even the Catholic church ministers to in his need. It looks to us as a mere gimmic in which to re-include the Catholic to the Eucharist. After all who wants to go to mass if you are going to be rejected at the Table of the Lord/Holy Communion. As a side-bar, this also keeps the weekly dues coming into the church.

 

Hi Ray,

I've already posted above that a child born in a family wherein the parents receive an annulment (there's only one "l" in annul) is not illegitimate. The Church ministers to everyone in need, those who are in a state of grave sin as well as their children.. children who are admitted to the Table of the Lord because they are not persisting in sin themselves.

Your comments are becoming both quite ignorant and antagonistic. I'm sure this isn't your intention, but I thought I would point it out so you could adjust your posting habits for the sake of your audience.

 

Ray, I used that as an example to make it simple!

But in fact, I do understand that in older times, were were instances where a woman was formed by her family (not necessarily buy gun point) by considerable coersion, which falls into the category of being "forced against somes will in contracting a marriage." it must be done with a complete and unfettered free will of choice!

Carson, who is deep into such studies, has come up with a reference that allows you to delve into other issues the constitutes an invalid marriage.

So, if you want to address the complex issues, review them first then we can talk.

I once had a very saintly priest, a Jesuit, who I use to transport in my car and serve his Masses, who was the Secretary of the Pontifical Faculty at Mundelein Seminary in Illinois, who told me that a South American Dictator went to the Church to get an annulment from his wife of some 20 years so he could marry a younger women.

The Church reluctantly undertook an investigation in the matter and to their horror, they found an impediment that rendered the marriage invalid!

The delima was: If they keep quiet to avoid the obvious charges that "Look, see, the Church grants her annulments to the big shots," they would be guilty of perpetuating an immoral union!

The Church was compelled to declare the marriage null and void despite the criticism that would come raining down! The Church must remain consistent with the truth no matter what the consiquences!

So, if you want to think it is a "Catholic divorce," there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise if you insist in your bias against the Catholic Church, but I would at least plead and advise you to examine both sides of the issue before making unsubstantiated claims.

Also, a child of an "innocent" but invalid marriage is not considered illigitimate by the Catholic Church, did you know that?

Even of both the marriage partners may be innocent here, such as a marriage that was contracted, not realizing the too close of a consanguinity of the couples (like adopted brothers and sisters, raised spearately, who meet and marry without realizing the consanguinity.)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Johnv,
I know a woman personally (Catholic) who was married for about 7 years , had 3 children by this man and got her marriage annulled. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME THAT THAT MARRIAGE NEVER EXISTED?

 

Question. Can a marriage become a marriage between two people living together? Would any Protestant Churches ever say this marriage is not a marriage after x number of years. What makes a marriage? I think we all would agree that we need the witness of the Church (whatever Church that might be). So if couple x gets married but the marriage contract is invalibly entered by one or both parties, i.e. in year 1 the marriage was invalid, can it somehow become valid on it's own?

 

Well, let's figure this out, Psalm.

An annulment is a determination that a true marriage never existed.

For purposes of our discussion, let's say that the husband of the woman in question was married to someone else prior to the marriage to her. Let's also say that he never bothered to divorce the first wife but simply walked away and when he met wife number two, decided that it really didn't matter.

Seven years and three children later, he decides to walk out again. Wife number two files for divorce and seeks an annulment from the Church.

Given the status of the husband at the time of his marriage to wife number two:

Does the seven years nullify the fact that he never divorced his first wife?

Do the three children nullify the fact that he never divorced his first wife?

Without having divorced his first wife then, is the second marriage a marriage?

I would say no.

Under the circumstances that I have laid out, would a finding by the Church that a marriage with wife #2 never existed be justifiable?

I would say yes.

Now, you and I do not know the circumstances of the woman in question. How exactly is it that you know that it was a valid marriage?

Because it lasted seven years?

Because she had three kids?

Get my point?

 

I can understand how a long marriage may not
have ever been a marriage. I have some acquaint-
ances who walked down the aisle, said all the
words, cut the cake, and signed the certificate, but
their marriages are not real, although they have
been together for years.

One woman was raped by the groom on their
wedding night, a practice he continued until she
forbade him to come to her bed. Not a marriage.

One woman was told on her wedding night that he
never loved her, and the emotional and physical
abuse continued for years. Not a marriage,
although there were two children.

One man married in good faith to a coercive,
deceitful woman who manipulated him throughout
their 65+ year marriage. Not a real marriage.

Just three examples out of many. They all would
have been far better off to have annulled.

 

This certainly confuses me. Did this woman not expect to be sexually active after marriage? According to scripture...

Diane

 

Hi, Diane --



I was apparently not clear. He raped her, and he
did this night after night for years, until she would
not take it anymore.

But I am a little nervous about this and not sure I
should have brught it up here. :-(

 

WPutnum,

Thanks for your reply and explanation.

As to the baby or child without parents, that is sad. We would view this as Catholic 'spin.'

 

Er, ah, the child will always have parents! Whether they are married to each other or not is not relevant. Biological parantage is not dependent on a formal marriage, right?

And for sure, the Church does not abandon and does not care for the welfare of the children which I hope you were hot infering...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

The man in question is abiding in an adulterous realtionship. The woman who married him is also abiding in an adulterous relationship as per Mt.19:9;5:32. According to I Cor. 6:9,10, can they enter heaven living in such a condition?