Pastor friend describes "The Passion of the Christ"

[sharpSword]

Johnv "This plays very well off the dramatice license Mel takes with Jesus in the Garden.."


You have said there was no Scripture that supported artistic licence to change, add to or subtract from the Word of God. Nor does it allow the adding to the actions of our Lord, nor does it allow the adding to or changing of words we know He spoke according to Scripture.

However the scene in the garden, the interaction with 'she demon', and the beating in the garden and the hanging from the bridge...didn't come from artistic license....they came from demonic inspired writings aka divination of emmerich and agreda....sigh...

 

[Spirit and Truth]

John V:

Generally, yes, it is. But the audience is smart enough to know what is dramatic license and what isn't.

S&T:

Then why am I spending so much of my time explaining to people, who are believers that saw the movie, that these things never happened. God is not the author of confusion. It is written.......

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Thanky kindly, Spirit and Truth; I truly appreciate your message to me...I tried to put as much in my profile as I could, haha...as they say, if ya get one shot, better make it count!

Yes, I have been seeing your posts & have been praying for you(& others). I'm not as skilled or scholarly as most on the BB, as all I've ever done is raise babies & taken care of my husband. I've only used one ol'Bible(only) all my life & it's never let me down.

I know we cannot serve two masters, so I choose to serve the Lord exclusively...and tho' I fail him daily, Jesus NEVER fails! The devil knows his time is short & is on a rampage. I believe this movie is paving the way for the antiChrist. We ain't seen nothing yet!

The BB is exactly how the people in my town act. I learn a lot on here & it helps me when we're on the streets. It's refreshing to run into folks like yourself & a few other brethren I've met on the Board. God bless you as you stand strong & keep fighting for truth.

 

[Greg Linscott]

Johnv,

Or, from Mr. Gibson's admitted Catholic perspective, isn't it more likely that the blood on Mary's face and lips is a picture of drinking Christ's blood (done today through the Mass and Transubstantiation, according to their doctrine)?

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Johnv:

Again, while these elements aren't referred to in scripture, the inclusion of them doesn't counter scripture.

John your reasoning away of Mary taking down the body instead of joseph has already be rebutted by scripture. I haven't read you recant your support of Mel's depiction of Mary's role, will you do so?
Murph

 

[Spirit and Truth]

Granny G:

Thanky kindly, Spirit and Truth; I truly appreciate your message to me...I tried to put as much in my profile as I could, haha...as they say, if ya get one shot, better make it count!

S&T:

You are welcome maam. Nice to see that there are still a few standing !

Granny G:

Yes, I have been seeing your posts & have been praying for you(& others). I'm not as skilled or scholarly as most on the BB, as all I've ever done is raise babies & taken care of my husband. I've only used one ol'Bible(only) all my life & it's never let me down.

S&T:

Sounds to me like you are a Proverbs 31 woman [ vs 10-31]. There is certainly NO shame in that.

[ I am sure your husband and children would agree]

Granny G:

I know we cannot serve two masters, so I choose to serve the Lord exclusively...and tho' I fail him daily, Jesus NEVER fails! The devil knows his time is short & is on a rampage. I believe this movie is paving the way for the antiChrist. We ain't seen nothing yet!

S&T:

Granny..... my...how SHARP your discernment is !!!

Granny G:

The BB is exactly how the people in my town act. I learn a lot on here & it helps me when we're on the streets. It's refreshing to run into folks like yourself & a few other brethren I've met on the Board. God bless you as you stand strong & keep fighting for truth.

S&T:

Thank you Granny for your kind words and your prayers. You remind me of my sweet southern mama, who passed on a while ago. Do you wanna adopt me?

 

[blackbird]

Murph! Blackbird is afraid that Johnv is "caught between a rock and a hard place!"---it'll be fun to see if he can "pull a rabbit" out of his hat on this one!!!

 

[vaspers]

helloooooooooooo everybody.

it's vaaaaaaaassssssssperssss. again. look out.

ooohhh you're all so wrong about everything all the time you know.

People who see The Passion almost invariably fall passionately in love with it.

Please refrain from knocking them. They are {sigh} in love! That's right: in [sigh] love!

I told you all that movies in movie theaters (more so than home VCR or DVD viewings) employ powerful HYPNOTIC effects.

Movies are strongly long-lastingly HYPNOTIC.

Milton Erickson and other psychologists have explained hypnotic suggestology tactics well.

I am opposed to all hypnotic techniques, but us Christians better wise up someday and know what these techniques are.

I have worked in advertising since 1978. I know a lot about this whole topic of hypnotism, persuasion, mind control. I was accidentally in at least two mind control cults, one was a Baptist church recently, so I unfortunately have first hand experience of this stuff.

Mel is in a cult. He used cultish hypnotic tactics to beguile the evangelical leaders and the film going public.

It is nearly impossible to explain to those who saw and loved the Passion why it is so hideously unbiblical and unhistorical and heretical.

They have been processed. They will get angry at me for saying this. I am not mean spirited. I just see what has happened to our good brothers and sisters in Christ.

Pray for them and for us and for all.

Do not act superior or arrogant about your antipathy to The Passion. Try to be soft.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

"Soft", Vaspers? As in a marshmellow gospel?

 

[dianetavegia]

I know a lot about this whole topic of hypnotism, persuasion, mind control. I was accidentally in at least two mind control cults, one was a Baptist church recently

Do the people at the 'home' know you've escaped?

Diane

 

[Glory Bound]

quote:
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They did say that this movie was historically correct, didn't they?
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Generally, yes, it is. But the audience is smart enough to know what is dramatic license and what isn't.

Again, while these elements aren't referred to in scripture, the inclusion of them doesn't counter scripture.

I'm not convinced that the audience is really that smart. At least not the writer of the Sunday School EXTRA! helps at lifeway.com. They suggested using the movie scenes of Jesus being tempted by Satan in the Garden prior to His arrest to understand the temptation to compromise. It's a shame they couldn't find actual Scripture to illustrate this truth. (Oops - I forgot - the movie is Scripturally correct - my mistake)

Speaking of the fact that all that Jesus did wasn't recorded, how about the fact that Jesus would freeze the Sea of Galilee so he and the disciples could play ice hockey? After the game He would relate the game to how it takes unity (teamwork) from His followers to acheive their goals!

Okay, so it's not recorded... but could have very well happened and as such it's okay to teach that. After all, it fits within the concepts that Jesus taught.

 

[sparkle]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the Lifeway writer's example, but we do know from Scripture that Jesus was tempted "in every way" - Heb. 4:15, although each and every account of such temptation is not found in Scripture.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by sharpSword:
You have said there was no Scripture that supported artistic licence to change, add to or subtract from the Word of God. Nor does it allow the adding to the actions of our Lord, nor does it allow the adding to or changing of words we know He spoke according to Scripture.

You're putting words in my mouth. That's not quite what I said. Otherwise, I'd be condemning "Veggietales". I said scripture is silent on the issue. But this movie is NOT the word of God. It is a movie. I've said this at least three times now on this board but it bears repeating. Making a bible-themed movie without usage of dramatic license borders on impossibility. This movie is no exception. It concerns me that so many die hard Christians take movies as Gospel.

If dramatic license is forbidden, as you imply, then I will have to chuck my copies of "Jesus of Nazareth", "The Ten Commandments", "The Prince of Egypt", "King of Kings", "The Greatest Story Ever Told", and, alas, my entire Veggietales video collection.

I have a better idea. YOU can chuck your copies. I'm keeping mine.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Glory Bound:
They (lifeway.com) suggested using the movie scenes of Jesus being tempted by Satan in the Garden prior to His arrest to understand the temptation to compromise. It's a shame they couldn't find actual Scripture to illustrate this truth.

Now, I for one REALLY REALLY LIKED the opening scene where Jesus is praying in the Garden. We know that Evil was there. Jesus said later that the night belonged to the powers of darkness. To use the appearance of Satan to represent the embodiment of all evil was very effective in conveyng that point. And the frame in which Jesus gets up and steps on the serpent's head (echoing the Genesis prophecy) was ingenious visualization of Jesus' forthcoming triumph!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I haven't read you recant your support of Mel's depiction of Mary's role, will you do so?
Murph

To be honest, I need to see the movie again before I comment, since I don't recall all the details in the movie in this scene.

 

[Spirit and Truth]

GB:

Speaking of the fact that all that Jesus did wasn't recorded, how about the fact that Jesus would freeze the Sea of Galilee so he and the disciples could play ice hockey? After the game He would relate the game to how it takes unity (teamwork) from His followers to acheive their goals!

S&T:

Hmmmm.... I like ice hockey....love going into the corners for the puck !!! Back to reality GB.....this would not be a good concept, unless it was received through direct revelation by a Catholic mystic, and unless it didn't agree with the direct revelation visions of other mystics used in the same movie script. Then it would be a wonderful idea, and all the "leadership" would trip over each other to endorse it as historically and Biblically accurate.

 

[Glory Bound]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Now, I for one REALLY REALLY LIKED the opening scene where Jesus is praying in the Garden. We know that Evil was there. Jesus said later that the night belonged to the powers of darkness.

We know ... ???? How is that? I note the way you capitalize the word "evil"... are you saying that "we know" Satan was there? Are you speaking of "the night" in general, or THAT "night" in particular? I'd like to know more about how "we know" these things, if you don't mind.

 

[Kiffin]

I think Johnv addressed this when he said "Jesus said later that the night belonged to the powers of darkness."

The scene in the Garden of Gethsamane if read in detail in The Gospels is more "hellish" to quote Dr. H.L. Wilmington of Liberty University than heavenly. Many if not most Bible scholars believe Jesus was being tempted to turn away from the cross and if that was so then the Demonic was there. I believe Scripture bears that out in the Gospel accounts.

Read Mark's Account from the very literal translation of the AMPLIFIED BIBLE
Mark 14:32-36
32Then they went to a place called Gethsemane, and He said to His disciples, Sit down here while I pray.
33And He took with Him Peter and James and John, and began to be struck with terror and amazement and deeply troubled and depressed.
34And He said to them, My soul is exceedingly sad (overwhelmed with grief) so that it almost kills Me! Remain here and keep awake and be watching.
35And going a little farther, He fell on the ground and kept praying that if it were possible the [ fatal] hour might pass from Him.
36And He was saying, Abba, [which means] Father, everything is possible for You. Take away this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You [will].

The Garden of Gethsamane was a trying time for our Lord Jesus and while no Demons are described, there is no doubt a struggle going on.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I haven't read you recant your support of Mel's depiction of Mary's role, will you do so?
Murph

To be honest, I need to see the movie again before I comment, since I don't recall all the details in the movie in this scene. </font>[/QUOTE]Sir there is no need to see it again for you have already discussed the issue to which I am referring. Here is a quote from you earlier in this thread.
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I don't see where the depiction contradicts scripture. This is dramatice license that does not counter scripture, but does portray what would have been expected.

Since Mary (with John) was the family member at the cross, it would have fallen upon her to be resonsible for removal of the body. That's the historical norm when it came to crucifixions during the Roman era. While Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea are said to have removed Jesus' body, it would by tradition have been the responsibility of family to be responsible for the body.
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You said yourself that the scripture lists the men taking down the body so the movies portrayal of Mary holding the body cannot help but contradict scripture. It is your statement that this portrayal does not contradict scripture that I seek your reversal on, by your own admission the scripture clearly states that it does. Your comments concerning dramatic license, reasonable expectations, historical norms and tradition will not be allowed to take precedence over the reading of scripture in this forum. Please make amends now.
Murph

 

[Glory Bound]

Originally posted by Kiffin:
I think Johnv addressed this when he said "Jesus said later that the night belonged to the powers of darkness."

"the night".. that one specific night in particular (in the garden), or "the night" that occurs every 24 hours? Or is it really a light=good / dark=bad illustration?

The scene in the Garden of Gethsamane if read in detail in The Gospels is more "hellish" to quote Dr. H.L. Wilmington of Liberty University than heavenly. Many if not most Bible scholars believe Jesus was being tempted to turn away from the cross and if that was so then the Demonic was there. I believe Scripture bears that out in the Gospel accounts.

What makes you think that the agony Jesus went through in the garden was from outside influences ("was being tempted...")? Why couldn't the knowledge that He would soon be made the sin sacrifice for the world by being cut off from His Father be enough grief???

The Garden of Gethsamane was a trying time for our Lord Jesus and while no Demons are described, there is no doubt a struggle going on.

Again, why the implied requirement of demonic activity here? Can't you see that Jesus was going to voluntarily submit Himself to be separated from His Father - and that was against His very nature? No outside influenences could top that!