Perfect children

The Bible says otherwise.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)

If there was sin, there was law. Sin is a transgression of the law. Sin is defined by breaking the law. You can't have sin without the law. It is in the very definition of sin. If there is sin there is law. If there is law there is bound to be sin.

 

There was no law from Adam to Moses.
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
So the answer to the OP is;
Yes, Until they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

I gave my answer on the first page:

 

I certainly agree. :smilewinkgrin:

 

This is false, and you have been shown.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

This verse clearly says a law is not necessary for those who have sinned to perish.

But Paul goes further and explains that men without the written law have the law written on their hearts, and also have a conscience which condemns them.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

Paul is not teaching that men without the law perish for Adam's sin, he is teaching that all men have a sense of right and wrong and are therefore accountable to God. They perish for their own sin.

 

The lengths that some will go to, to try to prove their opinion is unbelievable. Context Winman! Context! Did you read a couple of verses later:

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Romans 2:17)
--What law is being spoken of here? What law did the Jew rest in?
It is the Mosaic law that is being spoken of and it is the Jew throughout the passage that is being addressed or at least being spoken of.

The Outline:
Chapter one: Paul demonstrates that all Gentiles fall under the condemnation of God--that they are all sinners.
Chapter two: Paul demonstrates that all Jews fall under the condemnation of God--that they are all sinners.
Chapter three: Paul demonstrates that all Jews and Gentiles fall under the condemnation of God; none are excepted; we all are sinners (Rom.3:23).

You said (taking this verse out of context):
"This verse clearly says a law is not necessary for those who have sinned to perish."
--The Mosaic Law is not necessary for those who have sinned to perish, not just any law.
Sin is a transgression of the law--God's law.
This chapter is about Mosaic Law. All sinners have broken God's law in some form--all sinners from Adam onward!

 

It is you that is ignoring what Paul teaches. In chapter 1 he shows that all men have a degree of revelation from God and are without excuse.

It is true that Paul is rebuking the Jews in chapter 2. He is pointing out that the Gentiles who do not have the Mosaic law are often more righteous than the Jews. That in no way negates the fact that Paul points out these Gentiles have the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts meanwhile accusing or excusing one another.

They are a law unto themselves.

 

Tell me Winman, in the record of human history that we have recorded in the Bible, at what period in history did man live without law, and give evidence that he did. Please keep your evidence confined to the Scriptures.

 

I agree with you, and that is exactly the point Paul is making. All men have a sense of right and wrong and therefore develop codes of conduct. You can go where men have never heard the scriptures, yet they will have laws against stealing, or killing, lying will be considered wrong. This sense of right and wrong is innate.

I am on a cell phone, so I can't post a link, but google Barnes Notes Romans 2 and you will see he interprets this passage exactly as I understand it. Paul is showing that the inward law on the heart makes all men accountable for their sin. This is why men perished from Adam to Moses. This is speaking of spiritual death, not physical.

Please read for yourself and come back and tell me if I am wrong.

 

We all agree about the law God has written on man's heart. That is not what I am referring to. I am referring to God's record of human history recorded for us in his word.

There was law in the time of Adam.
There was law in the time of Noah.
There was law in the time of Lamech.
There was law in the time of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jospeh.
And then shortly after Joseph we come to Moses from whom we get the Mosaic law. All men had law from God, possible written law.
Capital punishment comes from Genesis 9:6, for example.

 

Apples and oranges. That passage is speaking about spiritual death. The passages we have been speaking about are about physical death.

 

I agree. Where we may differ is that I believe all men have an innate sense of right and wrong and develop these laws. When Abraham told Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister, Pharaoh was very upset when he discovered she was his wife. The Egyptians considered adultery sinful, and this was nearly 500 years before the law.

Why did Moses flee Egypt when it was discovered he killed an Egyptian? Because he would have been arrested and executed.

In Romans 1 and 2, Paul is showing all men have some revelation of God and the law written on their heart, and are without excuse before God.

Paul is not speaking of the physical here, but eternal judgment.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

For a good read, read Barnes Notes Romans 5, you might be surprised. I like Barnes, he is very unbiased in my opinion.

 

When the bible refers to the law it ALWAYS refers to the law of Moses. There was no law from Adam to Moses.

 

That is wrong. God called the men of Sodom wicked and exceedingly SINFUL.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

What does God call these men? SINNERS.

If your view is correct, how could God call them sinners?

Are you trying to claim that God destroyed Sodom because of Adam? Please explain.

 

No, that is not true.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)
--The very definition of sin is a transgression of the law. It doesn't mean Mosaic Law. If it did, I could violate more than 90% of American/Canadian laws and not sin. Why? They are not written in the Mosaic Law.

Our own civil law is ordained of God:
Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God. (Romans 13:1)
For this reason you also pay taxes, for they are ministers of God's service, attending continually on this very thing. (Romans 13:6) WEB
--Pay your taxes; it is the law (but not the Mosaic law)

In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
That was the law. Adam and Eve broke it.
Sin came upon all mankind. Why?
Adam and Eve broke God's law.
Law has existed since Adam, and it wasn't Mosaic.

 

I am just saying what the scripture says. I never said those at Sodom were not sinners. In fact I have readily stated that all are sinners with or without the law. It is just that when there was no law their sin is not imputed to them according to scripture. They will be judged on judgment day not for breaking the law but for being sinners.

 

No that is wrong. Every time the bible speaks of God's the law it speaks of the law of Moses. There are no exceptions.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
There was no law from Adam to Moses.

 

Where in that verse does it say "there was no law from Adam to Moses?"
Do not read into the Bible things that are not there!!

 

That seems like a contradiction, how can they be judged as sinners if their sin is not imputed to them?

Are you saying the only sin imputed to them is Adam's sin?

Please be specific as to what you believe.

 

Anytime the bible refers to law it is always speaking of the law of Moses. There are no exceptions.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
There was no law from Adam to Moses.