Perfection

Hello Billwald

I apologize to you, Billwald.

I responded to your previous post incorrectly, not realizing that you were quoting what I had posted.

You are missing what I am trying to get across concerning perfection/completion.

I am not saying that Christians are or can be "perfect" in our walk with the Lord, rather, the point of this study is to see that perfection/completion is something that is brought about by Christ's death in our stead.

It (the book of Hebrews) is speaking about our standing before God, not our daily life.

This is why we can understand that salvation is as the scripture tells us, eternal.

Christ is the completion of "saviour", being made complete.

His sacrifice was complete.

His sacrifice has made those of us who are born again complete (perfect).

This study looks at these things, and we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when He saves us, He saves us forever.

You may want to (and I hope you do) go back and reread the proffered verses.

Please understand that I am not trying to say that Christians can be perfect (sinless) in this life (though we seek after holiness, and are cleansed of sin as we walk with the Lord).

But concerning our standing with the Lord, we are made complete forever by His setting us apart unto Himself.

This is getting ahead of the study, but, consider these verses:



Hebrews 10:10-14 (King James Version)

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



These verses refer to the work of the Cross, not the work of the believer.

We cannot add nor detract from what Jesus has accomplished.

I hope that helps,

God bless.

 

Hello to All

Hello to All,

Our next verses:

Hebrews 6:1-3 (King James Version)

Hebrews 6

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

We see here a passage that has been debated hotly, with many interpretations.

It would not have been difficult for the original recipients, who would have recognized them for what they are: elements of Judaism.

We (they) are told to leave the "ABCs of the teaching of Christ" and to go unto "Perfection".

We (they) are told, NOT TO:

1-Lay again a foundation of repentance from dead works.

What? Isn't this a good thing? Repenting from Dead Works?

Well...No.

Are you, my Christian friend, engaged in dead works?

Are you not rather created in Christ Jesus unto good works?

The works of the Judaizer (with few exceptions) were dead.

Don't take my word for it:


Matthew 23 (King James Version)


Matthew 23


1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

This is just an example of the "works" of the religious in Christ's day.

These are they which partake of a religious system, thinking themselves righteous because of their works.

Praise God that we can engage in fruit bearing works that are evidence of Christ doing His work through us.

Lets look at the next item in our list:

2-Faith toward God.

This is indeed foundational to Judaism, which is the God given standard of worship given to the Jews.

However, Judaism was not intended as the stopping point of faith and worship.

It was a foundational system which would at some point in time be brought to completion by the ultimate fulfillment of God's promises.

One of those promises, Rest for His people, which was symbolized by Canaan, and came after deliverance from bondage, finds completion in the rest we have from "works" in Christ.

Christ accomplished the work we could not.

While they may have been satisfied to have that plot of ground, we know we will have a better land, a better deliverance, a better rest.

Sorry for the rabbit trail, back to "Faith in God".

While it once was acceptable to have faith in God in a general sense (knowing there is One God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), there is a difference for believers today.

I think these verses say it best:

Hebrews 1 (King James Version)


Hebrews 1


1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The revelation of the Son of God is now the God-appointed means for approaching God.

There is no other means of access to the Father, and in fact, it is an access which those of Judaism did not have.

Faith in God is still foundational truth for us, but is accompanied by Faith in Christ.

Those of other religions who deny that Jesus is the Christ have done what our writer is saying not to do: they remain at the foundational principle of Faith in God, and have not gone on unto Faith in Christ.

3-The doctrine of baptisms: the plurality of these baptism should be an instant giveaway that this is speaking of Judaism.

Okay, how many baptisms are there in Christianity?

And I am not speaking of diverse forms of baptism (sprinkling, immersion, association, etc.), I am speaking of Christian baptism.

In Judaism, the Baptism of John was but one of many "washings".

But, consider:

Ephesians 4

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I believe this to reference water baptism enjoined by Christians.

Spiritual baptism, by which we are placed into the body of Christ, is implied in v. 4.

I will stop here for now, because the next three in our list will need more time to look at.

These will be goads that some will kick at, though it will be hard for them.

But, look through them, and consider whether these can properly be applied to Christianity.

Or, as I suggest, are foundational principles of Judaism, and in general, Faith in God.

God bless.

 

Hello to All,

Just a reminder concerning this study:

The intent is to consider the theme of Perfection in the book of Hebrews.

The concept will bring automatically to mind the thought of one being perfect as you and I think of "perfection" in modern times.

I suggest to you that this is not the intent of the author of Hebrews.

Perfection speaks of completion, and only one use in Hebrews can be easily understood as pertaining to completion in the sense of temporal achievement, and even that use is followed by the call to move on to completion in Christ, to advance from the foundational principles of the law.

We find ourselves in the middle of six foundational principles of Judaism, which the writer has told us we are to move on from.

Which for most that will read this study, there is little chance that you will have to leave them, because you never engaged in them, having never been a participant in Judaism.

Lets get started.


Hebrews 6:1-2 (King James Version)


Hebrews 6

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


The Laying on of Hands:

While there are Christians who hold to the laying on of hands as a doctrine of Christianity, based upon Apostolic action, we need to be careful not to confuse this text.

Many have concluded this list speaks of Christian doctrine, but ignore what the writer has stated them to be...foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ.

In other words, leave the beginning teachings of the teaching of Christ, and move on (advance) to the completeness of the teaching of Christ.

There is a similarity we could draw from education:

A child begins in kindergarden, works his way through the grades, moves on to college, and graduates.

He is done with the instruction he learns from schooling, and the goal is to use that instruction in the workplace.

Maybe he has gone to school to be a doctor, and when he is done with school, he goes into practice as a doctor.

This, he is taught, is what you need to do when you are a doctor.

If he decides to continue reading textbooks, rather than actually practicing medicine, he would be returning to the foundational knowledge, rather than practicing what the education he received was meant to prepare him for.

This is what those who, having received the knowledge of Christ, were in danger of doing, and for them to return to Judaism, is akin to our example, the doctor.

Is his medical knowledge of any value if he never progresses to the actual work? None at all.

Is the basic knowledge of Christ of any value if one does not embrace Him as Lord and Savior? None at all.

Poor analogy, I know, but its the best I can do right now.

Here is the Strong's definition (All definitions are found in an earlier post).
5047. teleiotes tel-i-ot'-ace from 5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally):--perfection(-ness).

What is the difference between the ABCs and the perfection found in Christ?

The Law could not take away sin, the death of Christ can.

To continue to practice Judaism after having a knowledge of Christ is the warning our writer is giving.

We are told not to lay this foundation again.

The laying on of hands under the law was an act of association of the sinner and the sacrifice.

This is the foundational principle we are not to re-lay.

Our association today is with Christ, not an animal to be offered.


To finish up this discussion about laying on of hands, we can be certain that this is reference to that practiced by the Levitical Priesthood.

Primarily because Hebrews is contrasting the law (basic principles) with the completion that is found in Christ.

While there are several different "laying on of hands" referenced in scripture, the Levitical practice is the one in view.

We also see, and I think it good to mention, that the term laid hands on was used concerning violence toward an individual, as well as being something done by our Lord when he healed.

One of the aspects concerning the Lord and healing was this: He did not have to lay hands on in order to effect a healing, as is the case with the woman with the issue.

The Apostles laid hands on people at times of healing and conversion, and this is thought by some that the healing and the gift of salvation were due to the Apostles.

I myself disagree with this, seeing the laying on of hands as an affirmation of what God did through them, as well as being a matter of association.

I do agree that God's power worked through the Apostles (and disciples), but even as when the Lord sent the disciples out, it was He Who gave them the power to do what He commissioned them to do, such as preaching, healing, and casting out devils.

However, though we read that some laid hands upon people at the time of their salvation and healing, I see no clear doctrine that we (the Church) have a doctrine considering laying on of hands.

But, in conclusion, that is a little off topic, and would be better suited for another thread.

Our focus here is to determine what we should understand about the principles of Christ, and whether they are Judaistic practice, or, whether they are Christian doctrine.

God bless.

 

Hello BillySunday,

Have you read the entire thread?

Do you understand the concept of perfection in Hebrews?

But this thread is not about debating whether or not one can lose salvation.

I would ask you to read the thread in its entirety before dismissing it.

Who knows, you might actually agree once you read it.

God bless.

 

Hello again BillySunday,

I've been thinking about your post, and just wanted to say, I am uncertain of where you stand on eternal salvation.

So, in case you just read that intro and thought I was advocating that salvation is not eternal, I would like to clarify my position:

I affirm that scripture teaches that salvation is wholly of God, and that when one is born-again, it is a change in nature that cannot be reversed.

Hebrews, as well as the whole of scripture (concerning the New Covenant), I believe, teaches that when a man is saved, he becomes a new creature, and nowhere in scripture do we find God's spirit departing one of His children under the New Covenant, as He did under the Old Covenant.

God bless.

 

Hello again BillySunday,

I am sorry for you that this is what you have found in scripture.

This is the reason for this thread.

Hebrews teaches that salvation through Christ is the culmination of God's salvation, and, if you want to proof-text, what do you do with these verses?

Hebrews 10:10-14 (King James Version)

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The contrast found is between the effectiveness of the Old Covenant and the New.

Please read the thread before you write it off.

God bless.

 

Hi Steaver,

The "insecurity camp", thats good.

God bless, brother.