Perfection

At this point I am not sure how much is really dissagreement vs semantics.

Gal 1:6-11 - there is only "one" gospel.
Heb 4:2 - "we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"
1Cor 10:4 "They drank from the spiritual Rock ... and the Rock was Christ"

When Christ says "your sins ARE forgiven" pre-cross - it was "real" forgiveness.

When Enoch and Elijah and Moses were taken to heaven - pre-cross it was "real forgiveness".

My POV is that the High. of Priestly ministry of Christ begins after His bodily resurrection and ascension to the Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest (Heb 7-9) and that in His Role as our High Priest we have an Advocate with the Father - for animal blood could never provide forgiveness of sins. Thus even OT saints were forgiven by virtue of the the work of Christ at the cross for as Paul says "God calleth those things which be not as though they were" KJV Rom 4:17.

Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary deals with the sins of all - from Adam to the end of Revelation. Anyone forgiven - anyone saved, anyone whose sins are blotted out - receives that benefit through the "one Gospel" and there is no such thing as a "lost person keeping the law and getting forgiveness by law keeping".

Gal 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

It is only at the point where the lost turns to "that Rock" and accepts Christ that "faith has come" and they are no longer under the condemnation of the Law. The Law continues to condemn lost sinners today just as it did in Paul's day - just as it did in Moses' day. That is the role of the law of God for the "Lost". But for the saved it serves the James 2, and Romans 2, and Romans 6 role.

The legal action of blotting out sins that are on the books of record in heaven - could not happen until Christ was risen and began his High Priestly work.

But the action of "really forgiving sin" was valid from Adam to this very day - through the merits of Christ.

Animal blood itself does not pay the debt of sin - it is simply a symbol pointing the sinner to Christ's sacrifice much like our communion service today.

That is where "I think we differ" - Notice that in Daniel 9 - Daniel prays for the forgiveness of the sins of this people and his own sins - without priest or sacrifice. Animal blood is not what obtained forgiveness of sins. It was merely the symbol pointing forward to Christ's sacrifice - used in worship during the pre-cross ages.

I have not heard of any text saying "The sin nature is forgiven " - the sinful nature is "what we have" until we are either resurrected from the dead or translated and given immortal bodies.

It is the "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins" message of Acts 2 - only in pre-cross language.

Our obedience - be it repentance and confession (required of both NT and OT mankind) or participation on the Lord's Supper (NT) or in animal sacrifices (OT) is not what pays the debt of sin or earns forgiveness from God.

It merely shows the outward confirmation that we have chosen the Gospel - chosen God's way over the path of rebellion.

But on "what basis" does God forgive sins? Is it the "merits of a goat"? Or is it the merrits of Christ?

This brings us back to the Romans 4 point where God calls those things which are not as though they were.


As you point out below - the pre-cross solution was the same as the post -cross solution for the lost sinner - "repent"
[/quote]

Luke 3
1Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

2Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
[/quote]

I agree with some qualifier - the Old Covenant gets tossed around with different meanings.

In the case of Heb 8 and 2Cor 3 - the Old Covenant represents the condition of the lost - to this very day - and the New Covenant represents the Gospel condition of the saved (adoption by Christ, forgiveness of sins, the Law written on the heart).

Thus the Old Covenant remains in effect to this very day for the lost - just as the New Covenant was effective from Adam to this very day - for the saved.



in Christ,

Bob

 

This is where we differ.

I believe there was forgiveness full and complete for OT saints just as for NT saints and that it is all through the blood of Christ - so full and complete that Enoch and Elijah and Moses were taken to heaven - into the very presence of God Himself - - not separated from God in the least.

Having said that - None of us today are standing in heaven with Enoch - just as John the baptizer was not standing in heaven with Enoch when he asked if Christ was the Messiah and he was certainly not even on the Matt 17 mount of transfiguration with Peter, James and John watching Christ converse openly with Moses and Elijah.

There we are in agreement.

Heb 11 says "they did not receive what was promised" and it includes Enoch who was taken directly to heaven without even dying.

The reason is because in Heb 11 the "promise" is "an inheritance" vs 8-17.

In Matt 5 we are told by Christ that the inheritance is "the New Earth" "The meek shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5:5. In Rev 21 we see that promise fulfilled in the form of a "New Earth" and the Heavenly Jerusalem that comes down to Earth - the home of the saints, after the 1000 year millennium.

Thus it is literally true that even Enoch in heaven today - has not actually received the full extent of what was promised in the Gospel.

So pre-cross we have forgiveness, the New Birth, reconiliation with God, and yes even in some cases - translation directly to heaven. Even the disciples are in full communion with Christ as Moses was with God for in Numbers 12 God claims that He spole to Moses "face to face".

I agree that there is a blotting out of sins that goes on in heaven via the blood of Christ as part of His current High Priestly role - as our Mediator - that could not take place before the Cross.

Where I tend to pull back is the idea that animal blood in any way served to pay the debt of sin, or to provide real forgiveness of even one single based on the merrits of goat or sheep blood. All it was - was a shadow, a symbol pointing the worshipper to the Messiah's role as the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the World.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Enoch did not go to heaven "temporarily" nor did Elijah nor was Moses sent there "temporarily" as if their forgiveness was soon to be done away with.

Forgiveness for OT saints worked the same as it does for us today - it resulted in real acceptance by God, the real New Birth (that even Nicodemus was supposed to have accepted in John 3 pre-cross) and real newness of life with the Ps 51 indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The difference between OT and NT is not that they had "forgiveness-lite" and we now have "forgiveness-real" - rather both saints operated under the same model for forgiveness - which is to say - under the same Gospel.

It was "by grace through faith" such that the born-again saint was then created for Good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Hey Bob, your sure making a very good case for "faith alone". I thought you were a "faith plus law keeper" justified Christian.

 

In John 8 Christ said that Abraham "saw My day and was glad".

In 1Cor 10 we are told that they all drank from the same spiritual Rock - and that Rock "was Christ".

In Ps 51 "restore unto me the joy of Thy Salvation".

The OT list of saints in Heb 11 presents them as giants of faith fully accepted by God "for without faith it is impossible to please Him".

Heb 11 makes it clear that by faith "men of old gained approval" in fact in vs 5 they were found to be "pleasing to God". This only happens to the born-again saint, walking by the power of the Holy Spirit in newness of life. A "believer".

Saved under the "One Gospel".

In 2Cor 3 that Old Covenant is stated as the "ministry of death".

In Gal 3 that covenant is phrased in the "obey and live" format that is the basis of condemnation for the lost. The Old Covenant is still fully in effect today for every lost sinner. They are under the "Obey and Live" condition - and are thus condemned to the 2nd death for "all have sinned".

The reason this is the "old covenant" is that it predates the New Covenant of Genesis 3. For it is the Old Covenant of Genesis 2 - where God gave the sinless pair the conditions of retaining immortality and eternal life as "Obey and live".

But then they chose rebellion - and at that point the Genesis 3 "proto-evangelian" opened the door to the New Covenant.

The New Covenant was one that promised forgiveness of sins, adoption into the family of God, and the New Birth.

(i.e. the ONE Gospel).


Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

Then Paul shows the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin
• Adoption by God
• The New Birth – the New Creation

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''


13 When He said, "" A new covenant,'' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

 

1Peter 3 says "baptism now saves you - NOT the touch of (sacramental) water to the flesh - but the appeal to God for a clean conscience".

Romans 10 says that with the heart a person "believes resulting in righteousness" and with the mouth that person "confesses resulting in salvation". Salvation is not delayed until after some sacramental water touches the flesh - but at the moment one believes and confesses - they are born-again, they are saved, their sins are forgiven.

They then choose to "walk in obedience" to the Word of God - Gal 2:20 by the power of God within them. And the first step is baptism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The problem with your statement is your idea that Christ was teaching in Matt 5 "you cannot be perfect because I have yet to atone for your sins".

Jesus does not say "some day in the future I will atone for sins - and at that time you must "give to him that asketh of thee" but not until then.

Jesus does not say "some day in the future I will atone for sins - and then at that time you must love your neighbor as yourself as you were told in Lev 19:18".

Jesus never makes the argument "your sins cannot be forgiven yet" - rather he always confirms "your sins are forgiven".

And Heb 11 points out that the faithful saints of the OT were fully "pleasing to God" fully accepted by God.

Romans 4 makes the argument that this was true - because "Righteousness" was given in response to faith - in response to belief - in the OT just as it is in the NT - Rom 4:3. Thus to this very day Abraham is "the father of the faithful". Rom 4:11 - the father of "ALL" who believe.

The "ONE" Gospel that was fully in force OT as it is in NT - was what resulted in the hall of faith of Heb 11 - saints fully accepted by God and some even taken directly to heaven without seeing death. It was the merrits of Christ alone in all ages - accomplishing salvation in all ages.

in Christ,

Bob

 

There was no such thing as forgiveness without sins taken away for the individual such that more sacrifices for the same sin are required. There is no example in all of the OT that if you covet when you are 14 - then for the rest of your life you have to continually offer a lamb trying to get that forgiveness to "stick".

In all cases the individual seeking forgiveness - brought 1 sin offering and then was forgiven. Just as the people of both OT and NT have been in all ages. The animals merely pointed forward to the death of Christ.

But Christ said "your sins ARE forgiven" and in truth - they were.

=============================

Having said that - you have brought up a good point about the Lev 16 Day of Atonement.

You are right that while the individual is forgiven as part of the daily service - yet there is some action still pending regarding their sin - and that action get's resolved in the Day of Atonement. It does not get addressed by the individual having to constantly bring in another animal sacrifice for the same sin.

In Lev 23 we have the spring annual feasts and also the fall annual feasts that are pictograms used to explain how the Gospel works.

The spring feasts (Passover, First Fruits, Pentecost) pointed to the first coming of Christ. According to the Gospels - Christ was slain on the very day of Passover (1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain"), Christ was raised on First Fruits (1Cor 15 points to Christ as the First Fruits of those from the dead) - and the Holy Spirit Pentecost event happens on the very day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

The Day of Atonement is a fall event that takes place in the 7th month. It relates to a key salvation event associated with the time of Christ's second coming. (A time shortly before the 2nd coming). On the Day of Atonement the sanctuary and the people were said to be "cleansed" (Lev 16:30, Ezek 45:18,21) of all the sins of all the people committed during the entire year. This is the only service that took place in the 2nd appartment of the sanctuary. (Called the Most Holy Place)

In Heb 8:1-5 we are told that the two-appartment model of the earthly sanctuary was patterned after the structure/format/design/pattern of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Dan 8:13-14 predicts a time when the heavenly sanctuary would enter into that phase of the Gospel solution for sin - depicted by the cleansing of the sanctuary seen in Lev 16:30 and also discussed in Ezek 45:18,21. Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 parallel each other - and at the same point that Daniel 7 states that a judgment takes place to solve the problems for the saints - Daniel 8 says that the "sanctuary is cleansed" to solve the problem for the saints. Thus even in Jewish tradition today - the Day of Atonement is associated with judgment.

The Atonement model that is presented in Lev 16 on the Day of Atonement includes not only the "once for all" death of Christ on the cross (the death of the "Lord's goat" Lev 16:7-11 - "the sin offering") - but also the work of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary as High Priest.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Certainly our "limited knowledge" does not "limit God".

If the Gospel works by the Holy Spirit causing the New Birth -- then even if the work of God the Holy Spirit is "beyond our understanding" it matters not to Him. He does His job anyway.

Remaining in the unregenerate lost state - is not the Gospel - either OT or NT.

Thus in Psalms 51 David confirms that HE had the Holy Spirit and that this is what brought the "clean heart" and the "Joy of Salvation".

This is the same message Christ repeats pre-cross to Nicodemus and it is the message that Christ stated ALL Bible teachers in Israel should have already known (as we see him state the point in John 3).

The person who is not born again - is the depraved lost person of Romans 3.

They started out in that condition in Joshuah 1.

This was their condition in Joshuah 1 - no false gods, no idols and scripture states that Israel " served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua " Josh 24:31.

Far from pre-cross saints being "filthy"
- "Enoch walked with God" Gen 5:22

This can only be true of a born-again saint. The depraved lost cannot do it.

Heb 11
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen .
2 For by it the men of old gained approval .
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible .


4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous , God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks .

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death ; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

NT or OT - (and remember this is a NT text above)
This can only be true of a born-again saint. The depraved lost cannot do it.

- "Noah walked with God" Gen 6:8-9
Gen 6
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God .

This can only be true of a born-again saint. The depraved lost cannot do it.

Instead of God claiming that Abraham was walking in filthiness - God says of Abraham

Gen 26
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws''

This can only be true of a born-again saint. The depraved lost cannot do it.

God is clear - the walk of obedience is only possible via the new birth element of the ONE Gospel.

Paul makes the same point in Gal 2:20 and in Romans 8.

Thus the case of Abraham
Gen 26
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws .''

The New Covenant IS the Gospel. It is called in 2Cor 3 "The ministry of life".

The Old Covenant in its pure 2Cor 3 form is the lost condition "obey and live" by which all mankind is bound still to this very day - if they are lost.

The Gospel is not "a ministry of condemnation".

The New Covenant IS the Gospel. It is the ONE Gospel active from the time of Adam to this very day.

Which is why that is not even remotely "the Gospel".

The law still condemns lost humanity today - it does not offer salvation to the lost.

:godisgood:
in Christ,

Bob

 

That is the part where I agree with your position.

Agreed. The role of the individual lost sinner was the same - as it is today - they were to repent and confess - God's role was the same as it is today - He did the convicting of sin, He did the new birth action, His Holy Spirit enabled the saints (OT and NT) to walk the walk of obedience.

Once the Lost becomes the saved - the born again spirit filled - adopted Child of God - then they can walk in obedience as did Abraham.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Actually - in this case the books containing the record of each person's deeds - are not God's Word. Rather the books containing the deeds of each person are compared to the Bible - the Word of God showing the right standard of righteousness.

In Rev 20:4-5 we have the "first resurrection" where the "holy and Blessed" are raised and over whom the 2nd death has no power.

This is the resurrection we see in 1Cor 15 and in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the saints - the resurrection of the "dead in Christ".

But after the 1000 years - Rev 20 points to yet another resurrection "the REST of the dead did not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years were completed".

That is the resurrection of the wicked. When their deeds (as recorded in the books) are contrasted to the perfect standard of God in His Word - His Law - they are found to all be condemned as sinners and having no savior at that point - they are all tossed into the lake of fire "this is the second death".

It will be shown that their names are not written in the book of life - they will suffer the second death.

Agreed.
:thumbs:

True. Ezek 18 is speaking of the 2nd death - the one we see at the end of Rev 20. In that chapter those who obey God do not die - those who rebel against God do die.

in Christ,

Bob

 

According to your pov, born of God enables a person to walk in obedience to God.

There are lost Jews who walk in obedience to God's word all the time. What Paul said they lack is faith in God's atonement, Jesus.

So being born of God does not suddenly make one capable of obedience to God's law. Even the lost can keep God's laws.

 

In Phil 3 Paul argues that before being a Christian - he was " a Hebrew of the Hebrews - as to the Law a Pharisee, ... as to the righteousness that comes through the Law - found blameless".

This is his description of how the lost Phraisee viewed himself.

But in 1Tim 1:13-15 Paul unmasked his former self as being "a blasphemer, persecutor and violent agressor" who "acted in unbelief" and yet was "the chief of sinners".

Thus the claim that the lost - depraved soul (Jew or not) does obey the Law of God - is shown to be false.

In Romans 7 Paul states that "apart from the Law" Paul felt he was perfectly righteous - but when conviction came and he saw himself in the true light of the law's Just demands - "he died".

Thus in Romans 8 Paul is very adamant that the unsaved man - DOES not do the things of the LAW and in fact "is not even ABLE to do so".

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God[/b].

In Romans 3 - Paul says "WE are no different than they" (Jews vs Gentiles) in that ALL are found to be in violation of God's Law (ALL have sinned and fallen short).

But it is even worse

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, "" THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS [b]NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

[/B]
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.''

Thus the argument that "unsaved Jew or gentile - really do keep God's Law" is shown to fail the test.

Let us take a simple example

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy". In Rev 14:6-7 Worship to God is derived from the Sabbath memorial of creation "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water". And again in Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship".

An unholy, unsaved, depraved person cannot keep the Sabbath Holy no matter what list of "things" they choose not to do on that day.

It is an action that CAN only be engaged in by one who is a born-again saint - sanctified and set apart by God as Holy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

This is after David's sin with the wife of Uriah.

David asks that the right spirit be "renewed" - for he in fact had it prior to that point.

David asks for a clean heart - this is request of one who has fallen.

In Romans 11 Paul affirms this "God is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief". Rom 11:23

David's "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" is a confession that he does in fact have the Holy Spirit.

Peter makes this case of the Bible writers (such as David) "The Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating" the sufferings of Christ AND the Glories to follow.

Thus Peter himself argues that David had the Holy Spirit WITHIN him.

Peter further said "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit Spoke from God" - again referring to the authors of scripture. (David being one of them)

Not quite.

In Jer 18:7-10 God's Word makes very clear the conditional nature of His promises. Which is why in Matt 18 you see the clear statment "I forgave you ALL that debt" only to be followed up with "turn him over to the torturers until he shall repay ALL" and ending with "so shall my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

And again in Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"

1Cor 11 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".

Thus David's statements are perfectly consistent with the way that both NT and OT describe the Gospel "good news".

in Christ,

Bob