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Featured Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, Aug 4, 2015.

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  1. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    You are splitting hairs with impressions
    All of us deserve hell I agree
    What I disagree is the notion that from this hell-bent(pun) pile, He picks some and 'dooms' them for heaven leaving the rest to burn.

    God is not offering a lifeline to humanity at the cross, He is merely grooming the few he selected for eternity with Him. Calvary is essentially for these few.

    God who is not willing that ANY may perish (2Peter 3:9),and who gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER (John 3:16) believe that in Him may not perish,is ONLY concerned with these few.

    Can you smell contradiction?
     
    #41 vooks, Aug 5, 2015
  2. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Yeah right. It is always misunderstood when questioned
    Get to the point please!
    Death befell the entire humanity but life to the lucky few like yourself right?

    There is a lot we know not about Satan and his angels. We should not extrapolate human problem to Satan, known into unknown is recipe for chaos

    Christ elected to save man, to bear the punishment for our sin. So, what's your point?
    Isn't it obvious the sin no more is adultery?
    The law was our schoolmaster.
    self-reliance....you are good with jargon.
    Now, when Peter preaches repentance and exhorts his countrymen to save themselves from the untoward generation, was he preaching self-reliance?
     
    #42 vooks, Aug 5, 2015
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I am very tolerant with people, but you are, putting it bluntly, a jerk.
     
    #43 SovereignGrace, Aug 5, 2015
  4. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    I don't think I'm splitting hairs. On more then one post you have made comments about people being denied Eternal life like it is owed to us. We are not owed anything but hell, and that does seem to be a truth you have realized yet.
    You say we all agree deserve hell, but your post do not sound that way.
     
    #44 blessedwife318, Aug 5, 2015
  5. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    I am very patient with jokers, but you are, putting it bluntly, a spammer
     
    #45 vooks, Aug 5, 2015
  6. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    When I said some are denied eternal life I simply mean God does not grant it to them.And that's a very small part of my argument. Please respond to the substance of my post.
     
    #46 vooks, Aug 5, 2015
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    This is a back and forth debate. You have to answer my questions too. Do you know as a matter of personal experience the Spirit of Jesus Christ is in you? If you do not, then there is no way you can understand this issue.
     
    #47 steaver, Aug 5, 2015
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    That's just exactly what the Scriptures tell us. :) Glad you understand!
     
    #48 annsni, Aug 5, 2015
  9. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Yes I do.
    Now please answer my questions without dithering
     
    #49 vooks, Aug 5, 2015
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Ok then. That makes all your questions irrelevant. Since you know Jesus Christ is in you, there is no way you could ever stop believing He is God. Bc you have a personal knowledge living in you which you cannot escape nor would ever desire to escape.
     
    #50 steaver, Aug 6, 2015
  11. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    PHP:
    This is circular reasoning.
    Who are the subject of these falling away warnings if not believers?
    If only fake believers fall away, why would God be concerned about them seeing they are already damned?
     
    #51 vooks, Aug 6, 2015
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You have to begin with what it cannot be. Regeneration is Christ becoming one with you in Spirit. The only reason you cry out to the Father is due to the Spirit being one with you. It's not the old you and the Spirit can't move my along side. You are a new creation. This cannot be undone for Christ said He will never leave you nor forsake you. How do you suppose you can get away from Him? He is one with you. He cannot deny Himself. Even if you become faithless and shipwrecked. Christ will see you through any valley. You cannot stop believing even if you tried. Ever try it? Can't be done.
     
    #52 steaver, Aug 6, 2015
  13. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    So, what does departing from faith mean for you? What are the risks that warranted Holy Spirit to expressly speak about it? What is at stake?

    And herein is another illogical conclusion of yours; if losing faith does not 'unsave' one, then one does not need faith to be saved in the first place. One is saved regardless of the gospel. The gospel is at best an unnecessary ritual.

    This point was eloquently captured by @DHK in another thread. There are no conversion moments for the Elect; they were born born-again, they have always been saved.
     
    #53 vooks, Aug 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2015
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The born of God can have lack of faith moments, we still carry along the flesh which is weak. But we are focusing on if one can stop believing Jesus Christ is Lord while they have Jesus Christ the Lord always witnessing from within. He lives in you, you cannot escape Him nor would you have any desire to because you have been born of God.

    What I have found with believers who get caught up in misinterpreting some of the "warning" scriptures is that deep in their heart they really don't believe THEY would ever stop believing in Jesus Christ personally, but rather like to tell others who they don't see walking the talk that God could take back the gift.

    You can't stop believing once Christ recreates you. So how else do you think you could lose your salvation? Poor works? Sins?

    This is why the Christian faith stands alone from all other faiths. Ye must be born again!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can lose your salvation, which is Christ in you, then being born of God has no meaning. What would be the point?
     
    #54 steaver, Aug 6, 2015
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not interested how Calvinism explains it (I am not a Calvinist), but Scripture actually explains it the same way. Throughout our lives we are to "test ourselves" that we are in the faith, that we are among the "elect." Scripture deals with us as saved, being saved, and will be saved (many times inclusively). Often Scripture deals with those who the Body of Christ, and this body is presented as the elect. These are people who have been saved, are being saved, and in the end will have been found to be saved. The problem is not how Calvinism explains the elect (they are right, those who fall away were not the "elect") but in how we focus on that one point in time when we "were saved" at the exclusion of everything else. In other words, Perseverance is biblical in that those who God saves (all three tenses) will persevere because this is also salvation. The difficulty is, IMHO, knowing when one's faith is genuine (when one is a new creation) as compared to when one's faith is a product of his/her own righteousness.
     
    #55 JonC, Aug 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2015
  16. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    You are skirting around issues.
    If DEPART FROM FAITH means 'lack of faith moments', what is it such a big deal that Holy Spirit EXPRESSLY speaks about it?

    Psychoanalysis is a good subject. Let's do scriptures for now

    DEPART FROM FAITH
    Why are you arguing with scriptures? Where would you be standing outside faith?

    human wisdom. Then all these warnings are meaningless
     
    #56 vooks, Aug 6, 2015
  17. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Me neither but you know Calvinism is a test of orthodoxy in some quarters, don't you?
    Really, indulge me
    This must be a mighty meaningless scripture because test or no test, your election stands. What is a man who discovers he is not elect supposed to do with his life?:laugh:

    With one too few IFs
    So scriptures assumes all as elect yet some are fakes who will fall away, right?

    And this focus will end up being an exercise in futility for those who thought they were elect but they are not

    But is unbiblical in that, there is no way of telling who is and who is not elect..it's all guesswork

    it is not enough to believe in Jesus, it is not enough to repent, it is not even enough to believe you are elect....all those are trial and error for you could not be elect from the word go
     
    #57 vooks, Aug 6, 2015
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Why does the Holy Spirit EXPRESSLY speak about the born of God being recreated as one with Jesus Christ? Christ in you!!!

    Each "warning" you see in scripture has an application which must be kept in the context being expressed.

    Let's look at the first passage you bring up....

    "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

    "Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

    "Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

    There is no mystery here as to what Paul is speaking of when he says "some shall depart from the faith". Paul clearly defines what he means when he says this, he is speaking about wrong teaching. Do you see anywhere in this passage where Paul says the person teaching these wrong doctrines is now unsaved?

    The RCC forbids marrying, does this alone make them unsaved? The SDA forbids certain meat eating, does this alone make them unsaved? In this passage "departing from the faith" is clearly a departing from sound doctrine which we see playing out all throughout the body of Christ. Wrong teaching does not in itself mean a person is lost, depending on the teaching itself.

    With that said, there are other passages which do speak of those who were once part of the church physically by appearance, but yet found to be un-regenerated in spirit.

    You don't think the Christian faith stands alone with being born-again?
     
    #58 steaver, Aug 6, 2015
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    What is your explanation on these statements brother vooks?

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

    "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11
     
    #59 steaver, Aug 6, 2015
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Nah....even when we don't understand Scripture stands. That particular instruction may be meaningless to you, but that doesn't make it meaningless.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #60 JonC, Aug 6, 2015
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