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Featured Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, Aug 4, 2015.

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  1. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    What wrong teachings would make somebody lost?
     
    #61 vooks, Aug 7, 2015
  2. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


    Who is included in the word us-ward?
    It can't be the saints because they are already saved
    It can only be those who are yet to receive Christ.
    But why would God be patient with them yet he has already determined among them who must be saved at all costs and He can't fail in His predestination?
     
    #62 vooks, Aug 7, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2015
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Remember everyone is lost until they become born of God. There are several examples given us in the scriptures of false prophets and teachers being among the church, the body of Christ. Not everyone sitting in church or even on the membership role is saved.

    "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction............2 Pe 2:1-22"

    These folks have knowledge of the Holy commandment, they know what the scriptures say about the person of Jesus. But they reject this truth and twist the scriptures for their own gain. They "speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever". "Wells without water" indicates they do not have the Holy Spirit Living Water, which is eternal life, Christ in you, born of God, regenerated.

    2 Tim 3 is another passage. They are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth".
     
    #63 steaver, Aug 7, 2015
  4. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    You are muddying issues.
    False doctrine would never lead somebody to Christ. That is pretty obvious.
    What Paul is addressing is DEPART FROM FAITH. this means his subject are people in faith in the first place. And they leave all that to follow demons.

    I want to know how somebody who has abandoned his faith can be said to be in faith.

    James 5:19-20 (KJV)
    Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins

    Here is James amplifying depart-from-faith/ false doctrines. He is talking about sin but he could also be talking about apostasy. He clearly indicates possibility of DEATH. While I agree subscribing a false doctrine does not automatically mean hell, it is a possibility.....unless James was lying

    PS
    James was addressing 'any of you', a body of believers
     
    #64 vooks, Aug 8, 2015
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  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    It does not say "depart from faith". It says "depart from THE faith". Huge difference. There really is no grey area about this passage. Paul clearly defines departing from THE faith.

    James also is speaking about doctrine and sin. Saving a soul from death could be speaking of physical death. Remember there were true believers in Corinth that "sleep" bc of their sinning (1 Cor 11:30)

    Now your turn again to answer a question...

    :jesus:
     
    #65 steaver, Aug 8, 2015
  6. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Now that you mention it,
    THE Faith means one of a kind and ONLY Faith. How many faiths do you know of from Pauline epistles?

    Peter talks of the unlearned who twist Paul writings to their own perdition
     
    #66 vooks, Aug 8, 2015
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I've been thinking about this comment. I know that you are right, mostly because of this board as Calvinism has not been that divisive in my own experience. But I also realize that my own denomination (the SBC) has used Calvinism as a test of orthodoxy insofar as its criteria for the IMB. Such a test is, I agree, wrong.
     
    #67 JonC, Aug 8, 2015
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Ahh, I believe that is what I have been saying when I tried to get you to understand born-again.

    "psyche" is translated soul 58x, life 40x, heart 3x and mind 1x in the KJV bible.

    YOU are a living soul, a PERSON.

    Here are some other popular translations....

    "you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins." NLT

    "remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." NIV

    "let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins." HCSB


    I simply gave you a plausible application of the passage, and I gave you (1 Cor 11:30) as a biblical example of born-again believers dying physically due to their sin.

    What we do know is that the passage does not give enough information to conclude that James is speaking of born of God believers losing their salvation, for once saved, all sins are forgiven, past, present and future. And no, this is not a licenses to sin.....:praying:

    Now your turn again to answer a question...


    Quote:
    What is your explanation on these statements brother vooks?

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

    "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11
     
    #68 steaver, Aug 8, 2015
  9. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    You are so amateur it's a pity.
    What is the meaning of a soul in NT?

    1 Cor is no believers dying due to sins but due to ignorance

    Show me any other scripture in NT that speaks of soul death that is not talking of eternal damnation

    What is ther to explain in these verses?
    Romans 6 is talking about God's relationship with Israel as a nation.
    Do you think those who fell in the wilderness were being delivered to perish in the wilderness?

    John 15:6 (KJV)
    If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    Teach Jesus a thing or two about past,present and future sins when he is telling you he will cut you off. What becomes of cut off branches?
     
    #69 vooks, Aug 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2015
  10. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    It's quite unfortunate when men use human wisdom, theological constructs as test of orthodoxy
     
    #70 vooks, Aug 9, 2015
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    "psyche" is translated soul 58x, life 40x, heart 3x and mind 1x in the KJV bible.

    YOU are a living soul, a PERSON.

    Here are some other popular translations....

    "you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins." NLT

    "remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." NIV

    "let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins." HCSB

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep". (1 Cor 11:30)

    And this would prove what? I already showed you the differing translations. James does not support your position of one losing eternal life once having it. That would contradict dozens of clearly expressed passages actually speaking on eternal life.

    The eternal life God gave you is Christ in you and Jesus makes it crystal clear He will never leave you nor forsake you. So how could you ever get away from Him seeing He lives in you by the miracle of regeneration, a new creation with a new heart, joined as one with God forever.

    Here it is again....

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

    "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11

    Do you notice eternal life, which the born of God are given in Christ, is a gift? Do you notice the gifts of God are irrevocable?
     
    #71 steaver, Aug 9, 2015
  12. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Clearly you have run out of your wits and have resorted to repeating yourself.
    Keep living like Lucifer and you will never see Jesus.

    Revelation 3:5 (ESV)
    5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

    Why won't Jesus blot their name from the book of life something He is incapable of doing in the first place?
     
    #72 vooks, Aug 9, 2015
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    It appeared you missed or didn't read my answer since you asked the same question I just answered.

    Not sure what you mean by "living like Lucifer". Those born of God do not live like Lucifer if you mean in rebellion against God. Having God the very part of your new birth would negate that idea...
     
    #73 steaver, Aug 9, 2015
  14. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    And if they don't or are incapable, then all the warnings against sin are redundant
     
    #74 vooks, Aug 10, 2015
  15. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Revelation 3:5 (ESV)
    5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
    Since it's rather clear that Jesus can't blot out the names, why is such a promise relevant to those who conquer? What consolation is it to the saints?

    And what about those who don't conquer?
    Wait, I know you will go like true saints conquer. But in this case, is it not silly promising stuff to those who conquer yet all conquer? It's more like saying if you are parents then you will have kids
     
    #75 vooks, Aug 10, 2015
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Why would Jesus tell a saint (one who believes on Him) that they must conquer? Conquer what? Faith? They already have faith. Are you suggesting that one is saved by faith plus works, or faith plus no sinning?
     
    #76 steaver, Aug 10, 2015
  17. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    That's my question to you, the need for conquering is moot seeing they are predestined to conquer
     
    #77 vooks, Aug 10, 2015
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Predestined to conquer what? Unbelief? The only thing that qualifies one for eternal life is faith in Jesus Christ.
     
    #78 steaver, Aug 10, 2015
  19. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    And no faith equally disqualifies you:tonofbricks:

    Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV)
    4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

    Little imagination is required to comprehend Jesus' ABIDE message
    John 15:6 (ESV)
    6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned
     
    #79 vooks, Aug 11, 2015
  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Your jumping around. You brought up conquering so tell me what it is you believe one must conquer....then we can move on to all the other passages you might think opposes eternal life.
     
    #80 steaver, Aug 11, 2015
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