Perseverance of the Saints - denied?

You just quote the texts that some people love to give their own spin on; who take them out of context and try to make them say what they don't say; who can't possibly reconcile them to the totality of the rest of Scripture which gives the plain teaching that:
1. Salvation is by faith alone, and
2 The gift of God is eternal life (eternal meaning eternal--without end), a denial of which makes Christ a liar.
DHK

 

Amen, Brother DHK -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

HP: While you are in a mood for preaching, harmonize this verse for us. Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

HP: Who denies that the gift of God is not eternal? The question is not whether or not it is eternal, but rather are there any conditions upon receiving it, and are we in a probationary state in this world? I say yes to both questions. I believe Scripture clearly supports both ideas. Have you received salvation by absolute knowledge, or by faith? If it is by faith, the possibility must exist you can be deceived. If you can be deceived, in this world we must remain faithful unto the end to be able to receive that crown of life promised to be granted in the next. That in NO way makes Christ out to be a liar.

 

A much maligned text, and beloved of the Catholics and other texts. What does it say?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In every chapter James addresses "the brethren." The entire epistle is written to the brethren--Christians, particularly those which have a Jewish background "to the twelve tribes that are scattered abroad." Brethren always refers to Christians. He is not speaking of the unsaved, and nowhere in this passage or even in the entirety of this book gives the plan of salvation. He gives a beautiful illustration at then end of the chapter in verse 26 which sums up the illustratiosn already given throughout the chapter.

"For as the body without the spirit is dead"
If your preacher suddenly dies while preaching (say of a heart attack). And you tell him to get up and finish his sermon, what will he do? He will continue to lie there until someone takes him to the hospital or morgue. His body is useless. It cannot obey your commands; it cannot serve you; it is absolutely useless. The body without the spirit is dead.

"So faith without works is dead also."
The word faith means useless, just as in a dead body. The verse is directed to Christians not the unsaved. An active Christian who suddenly loses his love for Christ, and now just sits in the pew once a Sunday and the rest of the week goes and lives like the world, not caring much for the things of Christ (as many do) has a dead faith. His faith is useless. His faith no longer differentiates him from the world. He no longer lives a life of faith. The Bible commands us to walk by faith, to live by faith. But if you are not doing that what good is your faith? It is useless. If your so-called faith in Christ is not producing fruit (works) then it is useless. It doesn't mean you are unsaved. Read 1Cor.3. There are plenty of carnal Christians. It simply means that it is dead in the respect that it is useless. It is not alive, living, active, life-changing. It is useless and not affecting anyone for the good of Christ.

God's love; God's gift of salvation; God's forgiveness of sin; are all free and unconditional. There are no conditions attached. They are free. Christ paid the penalty for our sins--all our sins. If you attach probations to them then Christ becomes a liar. You sell him short, slap him in the face, and say that when he said in John 19:30, "It is finished," that it really wasn't. That was just a lie. There were other conditions to meet before salvation could really be complete. Christ was deluded on the cross. He really didn't mean what he said. This is the insult that you give him.

Both. My faith is based on absolute knowledge--the knowledge that Christ rose from the dead. That is the cornerstone of the gospel, the cornerstone or basis of the gospel message. Other religions have no such basis for their faith. I do. Faith is based on knowledge. You might develop a religion in which you say you have faith in a little green man living on mars that eats green cheese. If you eat green cheese too, and believe on him he will give you eternal life. You can have faith in that, but what is the basis of your faith? You have no basis. You have no knowledge to base your information. It is blind faith. It cannot be verified. There are many religions like that. My faith can be verified on the absolute resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the truthfulness of His Word, and therefore one could say that it is absolute faith.

Christ is the author and finisther of my faith. He is a real person alive today just as much as he was 2,000 years ago. He is risen from the dead. He made the claim and demonstrated it through his resurrection. Others may be deceived by denying the resurrection. I am not deceived. I know that he arose. Therefore that possibility does not exist.

If Christ has risen from the dead, and my faith is in him, I cannot be deceived.
DHK

 

Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

BobRyan: // ... in my case I can get negative reactions simply by quoting texts that debunk OSAS. The rule seems to be "turn a blind eye to those texts" and then if forced to address them rework them into "not written to Christians or IF written to Christians then bent to only address less-candy in heaven vs more-candy-in-heaven".//

Actually, not.

Hebrews 6:4-8 is fully discussed here
showing it PROVES OSAS:

(Warning: this is in the Baptist Only area, if you need to comment
about it, make a copy of what was said and come back here
to post. )

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34250&highlight=Hebrews

It was also shown in post 8 of this topic that
your understanding of the passage is flawed:

Ed Edwards //Sorry Brother BobRyan, but if one understands the element of
Greek Logic called (in Latin probably?) Reducto Absurdum,
then one will see that both Peter & Paul (an probably Mary
also ) taught Security of the Beleiver AKA: Perservation
of the Saints, AKA: Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS).

And these two passage are the PROOF TEXTS for
Security of the Beleiver AKA: Perservation
of the Saints, AKA: Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS)//

Mark 13:13 and other parallel passages of the Mount
Olivet Discourse (MOD) have been discussed and shown to
prove OSAS.

That leaves us 2 Peter 1:10-11 and 2 Peter 2:20-22
left to discuss. Both passages are talking about false
prophets who are NOT members of the church but
who do ACT LIKE MEMBERS of the universal church.

 

But if everyone who believes that Christ is risen from the dead cannot be deceived, do they all have exactly the same beliefs when it comes to everything else? If not, somebody has to be wrong and thus, someone has to be deceived dont they?

 

Genesis 12;15: //How sad. How tragic. How flawed, to believe that I must persevere in order to be saved. How utterly contrary to scripture.//

Amen, Brother Genesis 12-15 -- Preach it! :thumbs:

It is the perseveration of JESUS that saves.

 

It is a simple fact:
If you are deceived about the resurrection of Christ, you are not saved.

 

Amen, Brother DHK -- Preach it!

Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth
the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart,
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saued.

No mention of the right:
1. Bibliology - the Bible
2. Theology - God the Father
3. Pneumatology - God the Holy Spirit
4. Anthropology - human
5. Hamartiology - Sin
6. Ecclesiology - church
7. Angelology - angels & deamons
8. Eschatology - last things

Only mentions the right;
Christology - God the Son
Soteriology - Salvation

 

BobRyan: //Time to get out the scissors and snip out those bad bible texts!!//

Unfortunately you are ignoring the Scriptural Proofs
being given in this very thread and other similiar threads like:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34731

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34639

We have dropped you on the floor in our spare time :BangHead:
(in our main time we raise grandchildren).

 

even the devils believe and tremble. I bet they know and believe Jesus was raised from the dead.

Jms:2:19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Just because you believe something about God and about Jesus doesnt mean you are saved. You gotta read the rest of the Bible

 

BobRyan: //Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.//

For your statement to be correct, we must have
some things be true; (to match with scripture)

Rev 2:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
... To him that ouercommeth will I giue to eate of the tree of life,
which is in the middest of the Paradise of God

so ? Eternal life = eate of the tree of life,
which is in the middest of the Paradise of God

Rev 2:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
... He that ouercommeth, shall not be hurt of the second death.

so? Eternal life = not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
... To him that ouercommeth will I giue to eate of the hidden Manna, and will giue him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth, sauing hee that receiueth it.

so ? Eternal life = will I giue to eate of the hidden Manna,
and will giue him a white stone,
and in the stone a new name written,
which no man knoweth, sauing hee that receiueth it

Rev 2:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
... And hee that ouercommeth, and keepeth my workes
vnto the ende, to him will I giue power ouer the nations:

so ? Eternal life = power ouer the nations


Rev 3:5 (KJV1611 Edition):
... Hee that ouercommeth, the same shalbe clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the booke of life, but I will confesse his name before my Father, and before his Angels.

so? Eternal life = he same shalbe clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the booke of life, but I will confesse his name before my Father, and before his Angels

Rev 3:12 (KJV1611 Edition):
Him that ouercommeth, will I make a pillar
in the Temple of my God, and he shall goe no more
out: and I wil write vpon him the Name of my God,
and the name of the Citie of my God,
which is new Hierusalem, which commeth
downe out of heauen from my God:
And I will write vpon him my New name.

so ? Eternal life = will I make a pillar
in the Temple of my God, and he shall goe no more
out: and I wil write vpon him the Name of my God,
and the name of the Citie of my God,
which is new Hierusalem, which commeth
downe out of heauen from my God:
And I will write vpon him my New name.

Rev 3:21 (KJV1611 Edition):
To him that ouercommeth, will I graunt
to sit with mee in my throne, euen as I
also ouercame, and am set downe
with my Father in his throne.

so ? Eternal life = will I graunt
to sit with mee in my throne, euen as I
also ouercame, and am set downe
with my Father in his throne

Sorry, but I'm not sure that eternal life means all these
things. I'll admit a couple of them do sound a lot like
eternal life:

Eternal life = eate of the tree of life,
which is in the middest of the Paradise of God
Eternal life = not be hurt of the second death
Eternal life = he same shalbe clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the booke of life, but I will confesse his name before my Father, and before his Angels

Again, the logic discussions do compute what
will happen to those who do not overcome.
Say you are saved and are a complete clutz.

1Co 3:13-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
Euery mans worke shall be made manifest.
For the day shall declare it, because it shall
bee reuealed by fire, and the fire shall trie
euery mans worke of what sort it is.
14 If any mans worke abide which he hath
built thereupon, he shal receiue a reward.
15 If any mans worke shall bee burnt,
he shall suffer losse: but he himselfe
shall be saued: yet so, as by fire.

Such a person (and each of us may well be such)
might not
get to eate of the hidden Manna, have no white stone
with a new name written in it known only to the one
receiving it.

Such a person might not be a pillar
in the Temple of my God. But still might
reside in eternal life.

Such a person might never sit on the throne
with Jesus, but still reside in eternal life.

Etc.

 

Ed,

Do you understand what word, 'overcometh' means?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

No.

You tell me what 'ouercometh" means.
Thank you.

 

The foundation of my faith is the resurrection of Christ. That is not the foundation of the devil's (faith).
James is addressing his epistle to believers, not to devils (demons).
Thus you take an illustration that he uses and you use it for your own purposes to try and prove a preconceived idea of yours which is entirely unscriptural. You gotta read the rest the of the Bible, and better still take Paul's admonition, that when you do read "rightly divide the word of truth"; not butcher it.
DHK

 

Ed,

Why not you answer my question of 'overcometh'? I am waiting on you to answer my question.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!