Perseverance of the Saints - denied?

HP: Who is Christ addressing? Why should they worry about deception? What is the reward of deception in the case of those Christ is warning?

 

The Lettuce Passage:

Hebrews 10:19-25 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness
to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus,
20 by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us,
through the curtain (that is, His flesh);
21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience
and our bodies washed in pure water.
23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering,
for He who promised is faithful.
24 And let us be concerned about one another in order
to promote love and good works,
25 (Let us) not (be) staying away from our meetings,
as some habitually do, but encouraging each other,
and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

 

HP: A hearty Amen! from myself as well. Very well stated.

Just the same, knowing Brother Ed as I do, hold on tight to your trousers! :smilewinkgrin:

 

In the interest of space, I've only pulled part of your quote.

Agreed - James is talking to Christians and not telling them the plan of salvation just a Paul was talking to Ephesian Christians and not telling them the plan of salvation.

James askes a question, "Can faith save him"? (2:14). This is a rhetorical question with the obvious answer "NO"!

James also states, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.", yet you state a person is justified by faith alone. That's quite some mental gymnastics required to jump to that conclusion.

James at the conclusion of his book, still talking to Christians, says, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." - (5:19-20).

What if the wandering brother does not turn from his way? The result is death with a multitude of uncovered sins.

What kind of death? Physical death? Of course not. All will die, the righteous and sinner alike. Hasn't James already talked about death? Yes, he stated in Chapter 1:14-15, "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

James is being consistent. Sin leads to spiritual death. Remember he is talking to Christians. Why is he warning Christians about spiritual death in Chapter 1 and 5, if that is impossible?

After James makes that statement in Chapter 1 about sin leading to death, he makes this statement, "Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers."

If it is impossible for Christians to be deceived, then nobody told James. In fact, James, writing by inspiration, warned against being deceived on the very subject that you are deceived on and you think it is impossible for you to be deceived. How ironic.

 

:applause: :applause: :applause:

 

A living faith is evidenced by one's life, which of course includes works.
He is not saved by works. He is saved by faith. Faith in Christ will change a person so that (generally speaking) he will do good works.
One must remember that it is God that judges the heart and not man.
Lot was declared righteous by God, and we would have said that he no works to show for "his Christianity."
The thief on the cross had no works to show for his salvation, but Jesus said that he would be in paradise.
In 1Cor.3 Paul speaks to the Corinthians as "carnal" Christians, not as spiritual. It is doubtful that works were evidenced in their lives. They even came to the Lord's Supper drunk. It is the most carnal church that Paul writes to. Carnal Christians don't have much to show in the way of works.
James is speaking of living the Christian live--practical Christian living. He is not speaking of salvation. His teaching is that one who is saved by faith, his faith (Christianity) will be evidenced by faith. But that statement--like so many others in the Bible is not hard and fast. It is God that looks at the heart; not man. You and I are not the judges of the hearts of men. Don't try and play the part.

There is no mental gymnastics if you understand the purpose for which James is writing. It is practical Christian living. He is not writing about salvation.
Yet, over and over again--in the gospels, the Book of Acts, Romans, and elswhere, we are taught that salvation is by faith alone. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. You can't build your theology on one passge in James just because you don't grasp the purpose of the book. Expound the first five verses of Romans 4. There is no way that you can get anything else but faith alone in that passage. The same holds true for Eph.2:8,9; Rom.5:1; Acts 10:43; 16:30,31; Rom.10:9,10; John 3:16,17,36. And many more. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Salvation is the gift of God (Rom.6:23; Eph.2:8,9; John 10:27-30). You can't work for it. Salvation is not of works. It is the free gift of God. To believe otherwise is to be very confused on the doctrine of soteriology.

That is right. It is. It is physical death. God will take the life of an erring brother (if necessary) that he might not continue in sin. That way the sins that he would have committed won't be committed.
But if one "turns" the sinner from his way, then he will save him (from physical death) and save him from doing all those sins that he would have, had he continued in his sin.
This is a practical book about practical Christian living written to Christians, and does not speak about salvation.

Yes, an early untimely death--a judgement of the Lord--just as Annanias and Sapphira faced; just as many of the Corinthians faced in 1Cor.11:30. God judges sin. He will take a believer out of this world if he continues in sin (in an extreme way).

Yes, all will die--some sooner than others, and some sooner then the time that they didn't necessarily have to.

Your assumptions are unfounded. He is speaking of physical death. A Christian doesn't die a spiritual death. That would be contradictory, and would make Christ a liar. The gift of God is eternal life, not temporary life. Did Christ lie about this? Are you making James a liar about salvation as well?

Don't be deceived about sin. More accurately the verse says "Do not err my beloved brethren." It is not simply being deceived. It is erring, being in error. Don't make the mistake about being deceived about sin. This has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with the consequences of sin in the Christian life--which is never a loss of salvation.

Who said it is impossible to be deceived. It is impossible for a Christian to lose their salvation. Don't be deceived about sin.
You are deceived or confused (more accurately put) on the subject of salvation. James says nothing about salvation. He is speaking of practical Christian living throughout the entirety of the epistle.
DHK

 

To DHK:

Faith alone?

You are painfully aware this phrase is only used one time in scripture and the conculsion does not support your position (Jas 2:24).

Paul, writing the the Ephesians is not telling the how to be saved. As you know, he is talking to Christians. He mentions they were saved by grace through faith. Let's look at it in context.

Eph 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Just when were we raised up with Him and made alive?

Paul has a similiar discussion in Rom, but with much more detail. Notice Rom 5:1-2, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Now notice Rom 6:3-8, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."

When are we raised up with Christ? Both Ephesian and Romans make reference to this.

When do we live or when are we made alive? After our resurrection following our death.

When does all this take place? At our baptism as Paul clearly shows in vs 3-4 of Rom 6.

Furthermore, for you to contend that James is talking of physical death in James 5, is very telling. Again, lets look at it.

James 5:19-20, My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Why aren't this brother's sins covered? Because he has wandered from the truth. I guess you would rather it say, "saves his body from an untimely death".

This passages says it "will" save a soul from death. This mean all who wander from the truth will meet an untimely death, just like Annanias and Sapphira. Is that what you truly believe?

Notice James 1:12-15, "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

Sin.. brings forth an untimely death????????? Remember, he's talking to Christians.

It can't get much plainer than, "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain." - I Cor 15:1-2

I'm sure you have a twist for this one, to a meaning other than the obvious.

It is possible to believe in vain, according to Paul, but not to you, since belief only saves.

And while were at it, please explain to me how it is possible for one to be better off having never heard the gospel than to hear it, escape from the polutions and entanglements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and to know the way of righteousness, and then to turn back.

Under your theory, everyone is ALAWYS better off escaping the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, right?

Lastly, YOU SAID you could not be deceived. Re-read the last sentence in the post that I originally responded to.

 

Why re-read anything you said when it appears you didn't read or grasp anything I said in my last post.
The purpose of James was to write to Christians about practical Christian living. He does not discuss salvation.
The purpose of Romans in writing to Christians is to expound the great truths of salvation. His entire book is about salvation.
Until you get these facts into your head there is no use in discussing it any further.
DHK

 

As someone who is reading this discussion without responding, could I ask everyone to tone it down with respect to the comments made?

Please preview your post when you are finished typing and ask yourself if your comments imply an angry faith. Remember: how you write it says as much as what you write.

Notice that I didn't identify anyone or attempt to point any fingers - I simply made a request. No response is necessary.

Regards to all of you,
BiR

 

Amen, Brother BobRyan -- Preach it! :thumbs:

You have done proved the Doctrine of the Security of
the Believer: secure in Messiah Jesus, saved forever.

Does anybody want to have a topic on:
What should I be doing now that i'm saved
to show i've been saved? GOOD WORKS would make
a better title, for it is good works that is what
we should be doing now that we have been saved
and can be SURE WE REALLY ARE SAVED.