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Featured Please Provide Input on Revelation 12:4

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by George Antonios, May 31, 2021.

  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No.
    I'm saying that physical empires are often attributed to Satan,
    as he is the god of this world.

    False religions, especially religious systems, are also attributed to Satan.

    May I suggest long carefully at all the pieces, looking carefully at history, and looking carefully at what represents what?
    In some places we are told what actually represents what, and in others we're left to guess...

    That's where past history ( and identifying past world empires ) comes in.:)
     
    #21 Dave G, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the encouragement.

    May I also urge you to do the same?
    After all, there's nothing like studying His words deeply ( and over a long period of time ) that will guarantee us, as believers in Jesus Christ, the reality of rightly dividing them ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
     
    #22 Dave G, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    G. K. Beale argues that the woman in verses 6, 13-16 depict the suffering of the ideal church from the heavenly perspective, etc.

    Brother Beale's work is "worth its weight in fine gold", as another author and End Times proponent ( and expert )Teacher said.

    Notice "Joseph", in this first comment. Beale sees the Book of Revelation as a Commentary on The Old Testament, in that the symbols used are ALL FOUND IN SCRIPTURE and Revelation is Revealing what has been Prophecied, previously (no new "information").

    Again the seven visions (study the word for "Vision" and it means , a"new Vision") are to be seen as covering the same period of Time, i.e., The Inter-Advental Period, The Church Age, The New Testament Era, 1,000 Reign od Satan being subdued from decieveing 'The Nations', The "Day of Salvation", "the last time", and on and on......

    Also, referencing Bible verses for the Matthew 24 depiction of 1.) When will these things be (the distruction of the Temple, 2.) what is the sign of your coming (in Providential Judgement on Jerusalem = Jesus Coming in The Clouds) and 3.) (what is the sign of The End of The World (The Time of Noah ) must be drawn out from The Old Testament, in the same way.




    Commentary on Revelation 12-13 – Biblical Scholarship
    https://biblicalscholarship.wordpress.com › 2013/03/13


    Mar 13, 2013 — G. K. Beale argues that the woman in verses 6, 13-16 depict the suffering of the ideal church from the heavenly perspective


    12:1 Then a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars.

    The sign of the woman is “a great sign” while the sign of the dragon is just “another sign” (12:3). This verse echoes the dreams of Joseph (Gen 37:1-9; T Naph 5:1-7; Philo, Dreams 2.113) with its mention of the sun, moon, and stars.

    The radiance of the sun, moon, and stars were used elsewhere to describe faithful Israel (Isa 60:19–20; Test Abr B 7:4–16; Midr Rab Exod 15.6; Midr Rab Lev 30.2; Midr Rab Num 2.4, 13-14; Midr Pss 22.11–12; Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer 42; Tanna debe Eliyyahu, Pirke Hay-Yeridot, S, p. 56; Sifre Deut 10, 47; Pesikta de Rab Kahana, Piska 22).

    In 12:17 the children of the woman are said to “keep God’s commandments and hold to the testimony about Jesus.” Therefore, the woman represents the people of God in both the Old and New Covenants. The woman being clothed with the sun denotes majesty (Ps 104:2). The moon symbolizes beauty (Song 6:10; Isa 24:23; 30:26) and the fact that it is under her feet denotes her dominion. The crown of stars symbolizes the victory and glory God has given his people (Rev 2:10; 3:11; 4:4, 10; 14:14). The number twelve may allude to the twelve tribes or the twelve apostles, but ultimately it points to the entire people of God.

    Then, in verse 4, for the OP:

    4 Now the dragon’s tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born.

    Since stars often represent angels it is possible that verse 4a alludes to a war in heaven that is described in more detail in 12:7-9. Another possibility is that the stars represent the people of God (12:1) being persecuted by Satan (cf. Rev 9:10, 19). The child is Jesus Christ so this verse provides an image of Satan trying to kill Christ (cf. Mt 2:18).
     
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  4. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Agreed on this in general. However, just as the abomination of desolation in both Testaments are different, so are these tail-sweeping events different. And in both cases the stars are not angels but Jewish people under covenant.
     
  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    When the Holy Ghost of God says a third, it's a third. But that's the first historical application I've heard so far. So thank you, I'll check it out. Do you have the reference in Josephus?
     
    #25 George Antonios, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Quite so.
     
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    So when did they fall? And why is their fall mentioned in the chronological context of Christ's (presumably) birth?
     
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't Scripture tell us when they fell?

    For example, when was Hell created?
    Matthew 25:41, Genesis 2:1.
    I figure that it was sometime during the 6 day creation period.

    Who was the serpent ( Genesis 3 )?

    I think that putting all the pieces together, we can know that the serpent was Satan...
    Who had already been cast out and had fallen to earth, just as Isaiah and the Lord Jesus said.

    The Bible also tells us that Cain ( Genesis 4 ) was "of the wicked one" ( 1 John 3:12 ),
    who had again, already fallen to earth and was busy at work in those who had rebelled against God.
     
    #28 Dave G, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    If so, we have to add it with our (flesh-filled) mind.

    Revelation is an unveiling, recapulization, and reiterated explanation of what has been said, previously.

    Every symbol contained in The Old Testament.

    For example, each vision is also an unveiling, recapulization, and reiterated explanation of the proceeding visions.

    Your OP is in Revelation chapter 12.

    Did you know that a later Vision is also an unveiling, recapulization, and reiterated explanation of chapter 12?

    Chapter 20 is actually proof that the "visions" are presented by God, to be seen as occurring simultaneously.

    Please read and look at the expressions in chapter 12 and, then, do the same in chapter 20.

    How many identical Thoughts are there, that you find?

    (there are 7.....)
     
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    To me, it's not and takes place nowhere near the events of Christ's birth.

    Long before that, Satan was in the Garden, not in Heaven...
    So he had already fallen from his position as an archangel of God.
    But he often visits the Lord ( Job 1:6-12, Job 2:1-6 ) to accuse His saints before the throne.

    Why do I see it this way?
    I believe that he was in the body of the serpent when the Lord had this to say of Satan:
    " and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." ( Genesis 3:15 ).

    I also see that Jesus Christ has stamped ( and will stamp ) on Satan's head in a variety of ways...
    First after His crucifixion when He rose from the dead,
    then when He comes again to take the throne of His father David at Jerusalem for 1,000 years;
    Finally when Satan is set loose for a short season at the end of the 1,000 years, deceives the nations into fighting one last battle, and then being stamped on for a final time when he is cast into the Lake of Fire.


    But before that,
    Jesus Christ shall be the "stone" that strikes the image and grows large, like a mountain, overtaking and replacing all the nations and empires of the earth ( Daniel 2:31-35, Daniel 2:43-45 ).
    His millennial reign from Jerusalem.


    That said, I take my leave of this thread and wish you well, sir.
    My apologies for the long replies and for seeming to take over the thread,
    as it was not my express intention.



    May God bless you with much knowledge and wisdom in the days and years to come, George.
     
    #30 Dave G, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    He also said at the very beginning of this book that there would be signs in this prophecy, In Rev. 8:12 there are six "thirds". Are they also literal?
    You are welcome. In War of the Jews Book 6 Section 9.3 you will find it.
     
  12. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Of course they are literal.

    Great, thanks again.
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Daniel 8:8-10. 'Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in its place four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground and trampled them.'

    So it is not the dragon (aka Satan) who tramples the stars, but the 'little horn' who is usually presumed to be Antiochus Epiphanes as Josephus says. So you may have to rethink who are the 'host of heaven' (c.f. Exodus 7:4; 12;41) and the 'stars' (c.f. Daniel 12:3). The context of vs. 8-13 really requires them to be the righteous of Israel.

    But I didn't join the thread to discuss Daniel, but Revelation as per the thread title.
     
  14. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Not true at all, but if it helps you to simplify things go for it.
     
  15. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    How far does your literal-only filter extend? Literal chains on Satan? An angel with literal pillars, one stomping on the land the other in the sea? A literal white horse?

    Did God replace the stars that fell in the Old Testament or are these all new stars falling in Revelation? Do you see the problem?

    You may possibly be getting good input to your question in this thread but if you are so devoted to literal interpretation you will not be able to distinguish good answers from bad.
     
    #35 asterisktom, Jun 1, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Yep.

    Yep.

    Yep.
     
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    So is the man child?
     
  18. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    And the mountains melting with blood? Isa. 34:3
    And the nations sucking the breast of kings? Isa. 60:16

    If you say yes to these I can find more even more ridiculous than these. I can turn the knob all the way up to eleven. At some point you, even you, need to draw a line.
     
    #38 asterisktom, Jun 1, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
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  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that everything is symbolic and nothing is literal? No.
    Am I saying that everything is literal and nothing is symbolic? No.
    So don't try to turn this into an all-or-nothing.
     
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would be referring to Israel in the time right before the Second Coming, still future!
     
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