Please raise my understanding of Baptists a notch

[Abiyah]

In my town, there is a residential area that is pretty
bad, and one of the town's main streets runs
through it. One day, I counted the churches on
that street in the 15-block area. There were 14
churches; of the 14, 10 were Baptist. I mentioned
this to one of the students at the business school I
was attending then, herself a Baptist. She sneered
at my comment about so many Baptist churches,
saying something I no longer remember, but it was
a definite put-down, that there were so many
Baptist churches. Pardon my ignorance, but I
thought it was wonderful that they cared enough
to supply that area with places to go, especially
for those who may have to walk in order to attend.

Question: Why do you suppose she was upset
that there were so many? Is such a number of
Baptist churches in one area necessarily
indicative of church splits?

This same young lady was very loud about her
religion, and at the same time, she was very rude,
crude, and had an anger problem. She swore
unlike I normally hear from adults, she would get
angry and stomp and/or strike her desk, and there
were other problems. She was NOT at all repre-
sentative of the Baptists I have been around.
Although in her late twenties, she seemed do know
a normal amount of religious facts for one her age,
but seemed clueless regarding application.

Question: How would such a one be accepted
within Baptist circles: as a fellow-believer because
she said she was, as a hypocrite, as one not yet
spiritually mature enough to really know the Lord,
or as a hopeless cause for now?

Question: Approximately what percentage of
Baptist churches are Calvinistic as compared to
Arminian?

Question: Do all Baptists normally accept all
other Baptists as true believers? Which Baptist
groups are most likely not to accept all other
Baptist groups as true believers?

Question: Do most Baptists accept that there
are others who are also believers? Among
those who are not accepting of others, what is
their main separation issue?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Good questions Abiyah!

I have considered myself baptist since the day I was saved. I won't attempt to answer your questions because there will probably be as many answers as there are baptists!

I am sorry about your experience with the young lady. What a shame about her testimony.

When indivuality is stressed as it is in most Baptist churches it surely leads to a wide variety of fellowships.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Christ4Kildare:
Good questions Abiyah!

I have considered myself baptist since the day I was saved. I won't attempt to answer your questions because there will probably be as many answers as there are baptists!

I am sorry about your experience with the young lady. What a shame about her testimony.

When indivuality is stressed as it is in most Baptist churches it surely leads to a wide variety of fellowships.

Isn't it odd that before the deformation (reformation) there was the Catholic Church, the Orthodox (which split off from the Catholic Church in about 1350) and an odd come and go sect or three for 1500 years? Then the reformation comes along and Martin Luther himself complains of the cancerous dividing of Christianity. There aren't any Protestant denominations that can trace themselves back before 1500 or so though I have seen a couple of the ridiculous attempts. I recall reading an essay by a Kim Franklin who went to Brazil to convert the "pagan" Catholics. When she got down there there were all these comercials of the Lutherans badmouthing the Baptists and the Baptists decrying the presbyterians and telling people coming to there Church. She was also struck when on one city block she found 3 pentecostal Churches practically right next door to eachother. This is what the deformation has given us. I have to ask one question of those who read this thread. When these divisions occur even among Baptists who supposedly agree on core doctrine of some kind, do you suppose the conversation goes "Oh well your starting a new Church down the street and taking half my congregation. Great. God bless I will pray for you success" or "don't let the door hit you in the blankety blank blank on the way out.". I have seen one of these divisions take place between two pastors in a non-denom church my wife used to go to. I know where I would lay my money.

Blessings

 

[Abiyah]

This thread is a question for Baptists about
Baptists. There are several threads on BB that I
will not read because of all the vitriolics against
particular religions. I would appreciate it if you
would not start that garbage here. Thank you.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
This thread is a question for Baptists about
Baptists. There are several threads on BB that I
will not read because of all the vitriolics against
particula religions. I would appreciate it if you
would nol start that garbage here. Thank you.

Sorry for any offense but I just ask you to think a bit. I have no ill will toward the Baptist sect per say and know many good baptists who may well end up in heaven. But let's step back for a moment and look at this rationally. Futher this is an open forum and so I beg you indulgence in my posting what I feel is pertinent.

God bless

 

[Justified Saint]

Actually many Protestant demominations can't really trace their roots back the the 1500s. Classical Protestanism is virtually extinct in many ways, even Lutherans reject and have "reformed" many of Luther's beliefs. Protestanism has taken on some many forms and faces over the centuries, it is difficult to tell what it is.

And Thess, the Eastern Schism was in 1054, but it is amazing and can be confusing how many times the Eastern Church has re-submitted to the primacy of the pope and the Catholic Church only to break away again.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Actually many Protestant demominations can't really trace their roots back the the 1500s. Classical Protestanism is virtually extinct in many ways, even Lutherans reject and have "reformed" many of Luther's beliefs. Protestanism has taken on some many forms and faces over the centuries, it is difficult to tell what it is.

And Thess, the Eastern Schism was in 1054, but it is amazing and can be confusing how many times the Eastern Church has re-submitted to the primacy of the pope and the Catholic Church only to break away again.

Yes, I am aware of that. I am speaking of the final break. In 1054 there is no substantial evidence that any real excommunications took place though they are alleged to have.

It is interesting that the Great Schism was actually precipitated under pressure from the Muslims occupying I believe it was Constantinople. They would only allow the Orthodox to co-exist if they denied the papacy.


Thanks for the support.

Blessings

 

[Abiyah]

Thess --

Are you Baptist? Can you honestly answer my
very simplistic questions about Baptists and
Baptist beliefs, which would be understood only by
those within the Baptist church?

Did I ask about tracing their history? Did I ask
anyting about the RCC?

You have taken this thread off its intended path.
As I understand the rules, if the thread originator
protests this happening, it is that person's right,
in order to get the thread back on track and to
have the opportunity to get the responses
originally requested.

I could not care less about tracing Baptist history.
No entity is correct, righteous, or godly as a result
of its history, any more than a 30-year-old car
could still run well just because it did when it was
new. "You did run well -- what happened?"

 

[Abiyah]

I am requesting that all posts not about the Baptist
church be erased or that this thread be erased.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Thess --

Are you Baptist? Can you honestly answer my
very simplistic questions about Baptists and
Baptist beliefs, which would be understood only by
those within the Baptist church?

Did I ask about tracing their history? Did I ask
anyting about the RCC?

You have taken this thread off its intended path.
As I understand the rules, if the thread originator
protests this happening, it is that person's right,
in order to get the thread back on track and to
have the opportunity to get the responses
originally requested.

I could not care less about tracing Baptist history.
No entity is correct, righteous, or godly as a result
of its history, any more than a 30-year-old car
could still run well just because it did when it was
new. "You did run well -- what happened?"

Scripture says "The gates of hell shall not prevail" Abiyah. Doesn't say they won't try. The devil is "like a roaring lion" seeking the ruin of souls. He hits hardest where the truth is. It also says "there will be wolves within". Your looking for that perfect Church with perfect people. But you won't find that Church because that is not the Church that he set up. You will find him in the Eucharist if you open your heart and mind. Once again sorry for the offense. It is not likely they will delete the thread. Sorry to mess it up for you. Truly I am.

Blessings

 

[Abiyah]

You certainly assume a lot and write it as truth,
Thess.

I AM LOOKING FOR NO CHURCH!
I am perfectly happy where I attend and have no
need of a church.

I want this thread archived.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
You certainly assume a lot and write it as truth,
Thess.

I AM LOOKING FOR NO CHURCH!
I am perfectly happy where I attend and have no
need of a church.

I want this thread archived.

You may well be comfortable where you are at that is until the first scandal comes along or you find some doctrine that doesn't match your own personal interprutatoin. Then you will be forced to move on and find another. We all assume all Abiyah.

God bless you in your journey.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

thessalonian -

As Abiyah has specifically asked for a Baptist perspective and requested that you not derail her thread, I would ask that you honor her request.

Please refrain from further comment. Just as you have been allowed the opportunity to question Baptists on their faith and practice without hindrance in this forum in the past, you should allow the same luxury to others.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

[Gina B]

All answers are indicative of my area and MO.

Question: Why do you suppose she was upset
that there were so many? Is such a number of
Baptist churches in one area necessarily
indicative of church splits?

Answer: It would APPEAR to indicate that even the Baptist churches cannot agree among themselves, or 14 churches wouldn't be needed to cover 15 blocks. It would probably help contribute to church splits, and it would make it simple to find another church of the same denom right around the corner. Why work out a simple problem if you can just go around the corner and it's all gone?
Regarding application, there does seem to be far too many churches that teach right and wrong, but do not work toward discipling the members and teaching them how to apply biblical teachings to their personal lives. This isn't just the job of the pastors, it's the job of every member to build and uplift other members. Too many attitudes are "I tithe, I help pay the salaries of the pastor and deacons, it's their job and not mine".

Question: How would such a one be accepted
within Baptist circles: as a fellow-believer because
she said she was, as a hypocrite, as one not yet
spiritually mature enough to really know the Lord,
or as a hopeless cause for now?

Answer: Unfortunately, very well accepted from what I've seen in churches. Say this, say that, you're in good standing. This member needs guidance from others in her church. Either she's been unwilling to accept it or it hasn't been offered.

Question: Approximately what percentage of
Baptist churches are Calvinistic as compared to
Arminian?

Answer: We're known as the town with a church on every corner. The closest Calvinistic one is over an hour away, and isn't baptist.

Question: Do all Baptists normally accept all
other Baptists as true believers? Which Baptist
groups are most likely not to accept all other
Baptist groups as true believers?

Answer: In my experience, yes for the most part. I've seen two radical IFB churches who believed in separation from the other baptists. One based it on the other churches not being KJVO enough, and the other based it them being horrid because women were allowed to wear pants and the preacher didn't preach against drums.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad...

Question: Do most Baptists accept that there
are others who are also believers? Among
those who are not accepting of others, what is
their main separation issue?

Answer: That all depends. I've not seen very many baptist churches IN OUR AREA that believe there are other denoms that are true believers. It's pretty sad, but I've seen that changing a bit lately, which I consider good.

 

[mioque]

"Question: How would such a one be accepted
within Baptist circles: as a fellow-believer because
she said she was, as a hypocrite, as one not yet
spiritually mature enough to really know the Lord,
or as a hopeless cause for now?"
All of them at once, depending on the individuals involved on both sides.
No universal answer is possible in this case.

"Question: Approximately what percentage of
Baptist churches are Calvinistic as compared to
Arminian?"
I doubt that truly reliable worldwide figures are available on this issue. But someone with to much time on it's hand will post something eventually.
My own church is Arminian, but to be honest that has more to do with longstanding rivalries with a certain (hypercalvinistic) Dutch Reformed denominations present in the same area than with any deeprooted convictions one way or the other.

"Question: Do all Baptists normally accept all
other Baptists as true believers?"
In theory most do.

"Which Baptist groups are most likely not to accept all other
Baptist groups as true believers?"
Landmark baptists, followers of the Trail of Blood ideology.

"Question: Do most Baptists accept that there
are others who are also believers?"
Yes. Those other get tons of important stuff wrong ofcourse, but that doesn't mean they can't be true believers.

"Among those who are not accepting of others, what is
their main separation issue?"
In theory it ought to be practicing infant baptism instead of adult baptism, in practice it is probably the Landmarkism/Trail of Blood stuff.

 

[Yelsew]

 

[Dr. Bob]

Question: Why do you suppose she was upset
that there were so many? Is such a number of
Baptist churches in one area necessarily
indicative of church splits?

While it might be indicative of splits, it might be simply missionary endeavor to reach an area of town. It might also reflect great variety of birds that "roost" in the Baptist tree!

Question: How would such a one be accepted
within Baptist circles: as a fellow-believer because she said she was, as a hypocrite, as one not yet spiritually mature enough to really know the Lord, or as a hopeless cause for now?

Sounds like a very poor christian of any sort, much less a "baptist". Probably immature or a baby in Christ; may be hurting from some perceived attack in a baptist church. I always work hard to find the root cause of such conduct.

Question: Approximately what percentage of
Baptist churches are Calvinistic as compared to
Arminian?

Good ones are ALL calvinistic! Okay, seriously most baptists WERE calvinistic but sadly have drifted into arminian or semi-pelagian error in search of numbers and not offending.

Question: Do all Baptists normally accept all other Baptists as true believers? Which Baptist groups are most likely not to accept all other Baptist groups as true believers?

A hallmark of REAL baptists is a "regenerated church membership". So if someone says "I'm a baptist", it should mean truly saved.

Sadly, that is far from the case. ABC type baptists are so liberal that the message of salvation by grace by faith is often overlooked. Others have so warped "salvation" into an easy-believism that there is no repentance and quite probably no salvation.

Now, being a "baptist" means being part of a baptist church and personal salvation up to question.

Question: Do most Baptists accept that there are others who are also believers? Among those who are not accepting of others, what is their main separation issue?

Of course there are. Baptists are only one group that teaches a true biblical salvation apart from works. Many other groups are "evangelical" and believe that Gospel.

These other gospel-preaching groups, though, might add other beliefs that are NOT accepted by baptists (like tongues, or church hierarchy) and hence the different groups.

Hope this helps.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
thessalonian -

As Abiyah has specifically asked for a Baptist perspective and requested that you not derail her thread, I would ask that you honor her request.

Please refrain from further comment. Just as you have been allowed the opportunity to question Baptists on their faith and practice without hindrance in this forum in the past, you should allow the same luxury to others.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

Nice of you to step in. I find it interesting that when people ask the same of non-catholics with regard to a Catholic question, you stand on the sidelines. I will refrain however. Perhaps it is okay to start my own thread with my comments. I do appreciate your letting me post on this board however. Your indulgence is greatly appreciated.

Blessings

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thessalonian: "Isn't it odd that before the deformation (reformation)
there was the Catholic Church, the Orthodox (which split
off from the Catholic Church in about 1350) and an odd
come and go sect or three for 1500 years?"

Actually that is revisionist history.

In the year 1001 there were numerous pilgrimages to the
Holy Land from Europe, Africa, and India to
celbrate the start of the second Millinnium.
That year the largest Christian Church was the
East Syrian (Nestorian).
This church, the Catholic Apostolic Church of the East,
had over 250 dioceses across Asia and
12 million adhernets. More saints were commanded by this
chruch than the Bishop of Rome (Pope, the Roman
Catholic CHurch or the
Bishop of Conistanople/Patriarch of Antioch (Orthodox
Catholic Apostolic Church, AKA: Easter Orthodox). By 1051 the
Patriarch of Antioch and the Bishop of Rome excommunicated
the bishops, priests, and members each of the group.

During the next 200 years the Catholic Apostolic Church
of the East was crushed between the Mongols of the
East and the Muslim from the Southwest.

Needless to say, it is NOT in the best interests of
the Papists to have that information be of general knowledge.

 

[Abiyah]

Well, obviously, Thess really wants to occupy this
thread, no matter what administration says.
Therefore, I shall answer you, Thess, and let us be
done with it. Thank youu for the REAL Baptists who
gave real answers -- they helped a lot.

Once again, you tell as truth you imagined ideas.
Clint did not just "step in"; I contacted the
administration for help, and Clint stepped in to
clarify the rules, which you find offensive and
continue to ignore.

Thess, you have done a lot of imagining and a
lot of harrassing me as the result of your huge
imagination, not only here, but on another thread,
and frankly, I am tired of it. Saying nothing of the
previous time to anyone at all, I already called to
your attention one of those times you did it in
this thread, and you automaticaly followed that
one up with this following:

Originally posted by thessalonian:

You may well be comfortable where you are at that is until the first scandal comes along or you find some doctrine that doesn't match your own personal interprutatoin. Then you will be forced to move on and find another. We all assume all Abiyah.

God bless you in your journey.

Your imagination works overtime, but I, as the
recipient of it lately, am not appreciative of it.
You know NOTHING about my synagogue or my
experiences there, or about me, so why do you tell
your very creative tales? Do you think I have not run
into a few things I did not agree with, or did not
understand, in the years I have attended my
synagogue? How absurd. Did I run? Again,
absurd. I have belonged to two religious organiza-
tions in my life -- one for over 50 years and my
synagogue, which I attended simultaneously
while being a member there. I have attended my
synagogue for @ ten years, if it is of any concern,
and have been a member there for over 2 years.
I am not quite the jump-and-run type.

Thess, the church I used to attend was very much
like the RCC. We even had a "pope," and many
of the beliefs were uncannily similar. Where I go
now, the similarities are very few, and I like it that
way. It is good for me. That is my preferrence,
and it is not my preferrence in order to spite you.

When you first came to this board, I thought I had
befriended you. We had some nice little chats, but
as soon as I told you we were not like the RCC, it
has done nothing but go downhill from there. Did I
choose to make you an enemy? No! But your
imagination, in running overtime, has been a bane
to me. Where I live, we call an overactive imagina-
tion in an adult something a little stronger.

Let's stop this here!