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pledge of allegance unconstitutional ?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Revolt, Jun 26, 2002.

  1. Walguy

    Walguy Member

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    That is indeed the law, but it is violated all the time. Many lawsuits have to be filed every year to force local school boards and administrators to allow public school children to exercise their Constitutional rights. In many other instances the threat of the lawsuit is enough to get the offenders to rethink their oppressive anti-God rules.
    More directly on-topic: I read an article today about the guy that filed the suit that resulted in the pledge-ban ruling. This isn't the first action he's taken against public displays of religion by a long shot, and he's even offended by the seeing words 'In God We Trust' on his money.
    The really interesting thing is that this guy is an EMERGENCY ROOM DOCTOR. Given his fanatical hostility toward religion, I'd sure hate to be wheeled into his ER with serious injuries while wearing a cross or a Christian t-shirt. :eek:
     
  2. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Check with the ACLU. They are on record as intervening whenever your children's right to worship is abused in schools. If you're willing to sign a complaint, they'll help you.

    Assuming you're not trying to get the government to endorse your faith.

    You might send a letter to Scalia, Rheinquist, Thomas, et al a note on their rejection of the Religious Freedoms Restoration act. It guaranteed the right of students to wear religious symbols, have a Bible, etc. These gentlemen (and a couple of others)thought that it took too much power from the government.

    [ June 29, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: The Galatian ]
     
  3. Morat

    Morat New Member

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    Often filed by the ACLU.

    You don't hear about that side of the ACLU, of course. It's hard to scream about their liberal agenda when you admit they're also fighting to make sure that schools don't trample on student's religious rights.
     
  4. Gayla

    Gayla New Member

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    I would rather aks the Christian Law Association for help. [​IMG]
     
  5. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    ACLU has a better record in regaining your right to pray. But it's your rights. Remember, the ACLU is for everyone's rights. How do you know those other guys will like what you believe? If they don't, they won't help you.
     
  6. Walguy

    Walguy Member

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    I've read about a lot of these lawsuits, and rarely has the ACLU (Anti-Christian Lawsuit Union) been the organization defending the rights of oppressed Christians. It's usually the Christian-based legal organizations that have to jump in. On the other hand, if there's a lawsuit filed AGAINST any expression of Christianity, you can bet the ACLU has a major hand in it.
    When the flap was raised a few months ago about the school district in California giving their students detailed instruction about Islam, including having them say Islamic prayers, I didn't hear anything about the ACLU protesting or threatening lawsuits over religious instruction in public schools. If it had been CHRISTIANITY they were teaching, the ACLU would have had every lawyer of theirs in the country in there filing lawsuits. And anyone who thinks that isn't true is kidding themselves.
    The ACLU is an organization dedicated to the destruction of the Judeo-Christian values that made the USA the greatest nation in the history of the world. The fact that their official position on child pornography is that there should be no restriction on the sale or distribution of it once the pictures have already been taken tells you everything you need to know about this evil organization.

    [ July 01, 2002, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Walguy ]
     
  7. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    And when Christians sin does that tell us everything we need to know about God, salvation, the church?

    Does it mean that the church is an evil organization?
     
  8. Walguy

    Walguy Member

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    A Church is composed of sinners who have repented. When a Christian sins, he/she is acting against his/her new nature, and we always feel bad about it sooner or later, and don't want to act that way again. When the ACLU defends child pornography and constantly atttacks the rights of Christians to be Christians outside of their homes and Churches, they are acting ACCORDING to the beliefs and identity they have embraced. That's the difference. And you're smart enough to know it.
    If you want to reply to my post, how about substantively answering the points I made, instead of trying to either imply that the ACLU is as good as the Church, or that the Church is as bad as the ACLU (whichever way you meant it, it was kinda hard to tell).
     
  9. Walguy

    Walguy Member

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    By a strange coincidence, I just read a story (click here to read it) about a lawsuit being filed by some of the parents in that California district over their kids being indoctrinated in Islam in their public school:
    The ACLU, of course, has nothing to do with the suit, because it's only when someone tries to bring Christianity into any public venue that those people are stirred to action. Forcing kids to pretend they are Muslims on the taxpayers' dime is obviously just fine to the ACLU.

    I also just read another story about Mike Newdow, the atheist who filed the suit against the Pledge. Here's an excerpt (the entire story can be found by clicking here):
    Sure, better that the 98% or so of us who do believe in God should be made to feel like outsiders. :rolleyes: I guess it never occurred to him that if he didn't like listening to the prayer, HE COULD CHANGE THE CHANNEL! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
    Anyway, this is the ACLU mentality in its purest form. According to this guy and the ACLU, no Christian should be ever allowed to make any reference whatsoever to his/her faith where a non-Christian can hear or see it, and there must be no visible appearance of anything remotely connected to Christianity anywhere in public. (Islam and all other religions, of course, are somehow not covered by this bizarre twisting of the First Amendment, and may be practiced freely anywhere, as well as being forced on public school children at taxpayer expense.)
    If this mentality were taken to its logical extreme, there could be no Christian Church visible from any public street, because some atheist might accidentally see it while driving by. In fact, Churches would have to be completely devoid of any identifying marks whatsoever, because even if they were shielded from the street, some athiest flying over the city in a plane might decide to look out the window, and it wouldn't be right to have him be traumatized by looking at a Church, would it?
    Oh, and we also have to do something about all those cemetaries. There are always some graves with crosses on them, and we can't have those visible for an innocent atheist to see, can we? Since atheists bury their dead too, they are going to be visiting cemetaries, so those crosses have to go. If the surviving relatives protest about the defilement of their loved ones' graves, we'll just have to set them straight: this is AMERICA! Those crosses have to be destroyed, because WE HAVE FREEDOM OF RELIGION IN THIS COUNTRY, DARN IT!!
    You see, the problem is that true neutrality is not possible. We all have to be tolerant of each other's beliefs. Completely purging Christianity from public life is just as intolerant as forcing all citizens to be members of a Christian demonination. There is a middle ground between these extremes that reasonable people can occupy.
    Unfortunately, more and more atheists seem to be abandoning their reason in favor of intolerance and hate - and the ACLU is leading the charge.
     
  10. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Originally posted by Walguy:

    A Church is composed of sinners who have repented. When a Christian sins, he/she is acting against his/her new nature, and we always feel bad about it sooner or later, and don't want to act that way again.


    So the theory goes, anyway...it doesn't take into account how hard-hearted and unteachable some Christians evidently are, though :eek:

    When the ACLU defends child pornography and constantly atttacks the rights of Christians to be Christians outside of their homes and Churches, they are acting ACCORDING to the beliefs and identity they have embraced.

    Christians also act in accordance with the beliefs and identity they have embraced.

    SOMETIMES that even matches what the Bible teaches...

    That's the difference. And you're smart enough to know it.

    Yep I am and I would know it if it were - clear.

    If you want to reply to my post, how about substantively answering the points I made, instead of trying to either imply that the ACLU is as good as the Church, or that the Church is as bad as the ACLU (whichever way you meant it, it was kinda hard to tell).

    I don't feel like it :D
     
  11. Walguy

    Walguy Member

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    Translation: you CAN'T. ;)

    Let me try again.
    The OFFICIAL teaching of Christianity is that we should love all people as ourselves. When Christians act in an unloving manner (which, being human, we all do sometimes), it violates what we believe, and if we are truly believers in Christ we feel bad about what happened, and don't want it to happen again.
    The OFFICIAL position of the ACLU is that child pornography should not be restricted once the pictures have been taken, and that all traces of the Christian faith should be purged from anyplace where any non-Christian might be exposed to them. When they pursue these supremely intolerant and evil goals (which they do frequently), they are acting ACCORDING to what they believe, and are 100% proud of what they are doing. They are being as loyal to their beliefs as when a Christian DOES act in a completely loving manner toward others. It is therefore the PRECISE OPPOSITE of a Christian not following his beliefs, and your argument is thus shown to not only be invalid, but a full 180 degrees away from the truth.
    Hope my point was clear enough for you this time. If you make another post which indicates you still don't get it, I may be forced to retract my earlier statement about you being smart enough to understand. [​IMG]
     
  12. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Originally posted by Walguy:
    Translation: you CAN'T. ;)


    Evidently you lack the gift of interpretation ;)

    Let me try again.

    You have permission [​IMG]

    The OFFICIAL teaching of Christianity is that we should love all people as ourselves. When Christians act in an unloving manner (which, being human, we all do sometimes), it violates what we believe, and if we are truly believers in Christ we feel bad about what happened, and don't want it to happen again.
    The OFFICIAL position of the ACLU is that child pornography should not be restricted once the pictures have been taken, and that all traces of the Christian faith should be purged from anyplace where any non-Christian might be exposed to them. When they pursue these supremely intolerant and evil goals (which they do frequently), they are acting ACCORDING to what they believe, and are 100% proud of what they are doing. They are being as loyal to their beliefs as when a Christian DOES act in a completely loving manner toward others. It is therefore the PRECISE OPPOSITE of a Christian not following his beliefs, and your argument is thus shown to not only be invalid, but a full 180 degrees away from the truth.


    Yes, but the OFFICIAL POSITION of the ACLU is not that they are intent on destroying all Judeo-Christian values. Despite your allegations that this is their goal.

    Hope my point was clear enough for you this time. If you make another post which indicates you still don't get it, I may be forced to retract my earlier statement about you being smart enough to understand. [​IMG]

    Forced? Don't you have free will then?

    I'm sorry to hear that. I do! [​IMG]

    Maybe if you pray about it God will grant it to you... [​IMG] After all, "ask and you will receive" said Jesus... ;)
     
  13. Will

    Will New Member

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    Walguy,

    Here is some information you may find interesting:
    "ACLJ Wins Battle With ACLU Over Free Speech for Students in Alabama," http://www.aclj.org/news/pr_010618aclj_wins_battle.asp

    In the Judge's (U.S. District Judge Ira DeMent) ruling, initiated by the ACLU, which was overturned, the following things were banned in the original order:

    -students cannot read their Bibles during study hall, or pray before lunch;
    -students cannot discuss the meaning of religious holidays in class;
    -students cannot join in a prayer with other -students, even during a national emergency;
    -students cannot pray for a football player injured during a high school game;
    -students cannot give a flyer to another student about a church youth group;
    -students cannot offer a prayer at graduation.

    The ACLU not only didn't fight to overturn these, they initiated the action that caused these temporary bans. Luckily, the courts found against the ACLU, which was attempting to limit student's religious speech.

    Also, as an aside, don't expect certain people to ever respond or engage substantively. It's much easier just to throw bombs.
     
  14. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Have the ACLU never supported religious people?

    That's what I want to know. I find that rather unlikely.

    Did you look into that or did you only look at when they have opposed religious people?

    Throwing bombs can be dangerous... [​IMG]
     
  15. Morat

    Morat New Member

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    I'm not surprised you don't hear about the ACLU defending Christian's rights.

    But what you should ask yourself is: Do I not hear about it because they don't do it, or because the places I hear about the ACLU don't tell me about it?
     
  16. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    You aren't suggesting that some sources of information about the ACLU are biased are you? :cool:

    Speaking for myself I get my information from a variety of sources in the hope that the biases will cancel each other out :D
     
  17. Will

    Will New Member

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    Morat and AITB,

    Please share your experiences and information of the ACLU protecting Christians rights in school. This could be quite educational for all of us.

    I know neither of you would just talk off of the top of your head. :D
     
  18. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Here they defended a minister:

    http://www.aclu.org/news/1999/n072099d.html

    Here they defended people who didn't want religious symbols removed from their gravesites:

    http://www.aclu.org/news/1999/n032299c.html

    I don't know whether they've specifically defended religious kids in school.

    Maybe religious kids haven't gone to them to be defended. Maybe they haven't had a defensible case. I don't know!

    But it wouldn't be true to say they've never defended anyone's religious rights - when those are truly defensible. Or that all their actions are anti-Christian.
     
  19. Will

    Will New Member

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    AITB,

    You can't in other words. :D

    What a shock! :eek:
     
  20. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Well, have you defended kids' religious rights in schools? And if not why not???

    [ July 02, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]
     
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