Poll: #2, Suicide & Lapsi

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Sounds like that one who blew his brains out was really confident in Christ until the end.

Sounds liek that one who cut his wrists was rejoicing in the hope to the end.

hmmmmm

 

Just as an exercise in futility I'd like to ask our Once Saved Always Saved friends, how they reconcile this idea with theirs?

The following passage says these CHRISTIANS were at ONE TIME doing all of these wicked things listed.

It says dont let these things be once named among them.

It says nobody who does these things will enter into heaven.

Then it says not to allow people to try to tell you that disobedient children will enter into heaven because God's wrath is going to come upon those who do these things in the list.

Now how in the world do you all weasel around THIS passage?


Ephesians 5:
3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7: Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Ya think maybe you all OSAS's would be the ones pointed out here who are trying to deceive others with vain words and get them to believe that God's wrath wont fall upon the children of disobedience?

 

SFIC, I have never seen someone take so much scripture out of context. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians who were in danger of falling back into the OT law of Judaism. It was not addressing personal problems. You never did answer my question, "if you die with unconfessed sin, do you go to hell?"

 

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Giving no offense in anything, that the ministry be not blamed." Nor does this word "ministry" refer simply to the ordained ministry of the pulpit. It includes every one who receives the grace of God or that has named the name of Christ. For "as every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."

Therefore he does not want anyone to receive the grace of God in vain, lest that grace and its blessed working be misrepresented to the world and so men be further hindered from yielding to it. He does not want His grace to be received in vain, because when it is, offense is given in many things, and the ministry of grace itself is blamed. Yet when the grace of God is not received in vain but is given the place that belongs to it, "no offense" will be given "in anything," and the ministry will not only be not blamed but will be blest.

And now to show how complete and all-pervading the reign of grace will be in the life where it is not received in vain, the Lord has set down the following list, embracing "all thing," and in which we shall approve ourselves unto God. Read it carefully:

In all things approving ourselves unto God,
In much patience,
In afflictions,
In necessities,
In distresses,
In stripes,
In imprisonments,
In tumults,
In labors,
In watchings,
In fastings;
By pureness,
By knowledge,
By longsuffering,
By kindness,
By the Holy Ghost,
By love unfeigned,
By the word of truth,
By the power of God,
By the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
By honor and dishonor,
By evil report and good report;
As deceivers, and yet true;
As unknown, and yet well known;
As dying, and, behold, we live;
As chastened, and not killed;
As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing;
As poor, yet making many rich;
As having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

This list covers all the experiences that can ever enter into the life of any believer in this world. It shows that where the grace of God is not received in vain, that grace will so take possession and control of the life, that every experience that enters into the life will be taken by grace and turned to making us approved unto God and building us up in perfection unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

 

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

A suicide is not waiting with patience for Christ, therefore, not hoping for Him.


Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

A suicide is not walking in the Spirit


2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Taking the easy out is not suffering for Him, therefore the suicide will not reign with Him.


Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

The suicide must not be partakers of Christ for they do not hold the beginning of their confidence stedfast to the end.


Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

The suicide has turned his ear from the Lord who speaks from Heaven.


1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

The suicide has not obeyed 'Thou shalt not kill'.

 

Most of the New Testament were written 'to the church at...'

Does that mean we just dismiss them?

What about our Lord saying

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Since God is not a respector of persons, I bet the letters to the churches are to apply to each and every Believer, and the Words of Jesus Christ to the Jews as well.

 

SFIC, PLEASE answer my question.

 

How is one committing suicide 'steadfast and grounded in the faith'?

Amy, answer my question.

Oh wait! I cannot use that verse as it was written to the Church at Colosse, and must not apply to people today!

 

Makes me wonder how many are trying to don the full armor of God without needing to since it was the saints and faithful at Ephesus.

 

Oh well, God bless, SFIC

 

Wow Amy!

If I follow your theology, I would have to ignore the command to repent in the Gospels, for it was to the Jews.

Acts? To Theophilus
Romans? To Rome
1 & 2 Corinthians? To Corinth
Galatia
Ephesus
Colosse
Thessalonica
Philipi
To Timithy
Titus
James
Revelation? 7 churches
etc...

By your logic that Hebrews does not apply to us today, we must deduct that we do not have to stand, follow, continue, abide, etc.

We can ignore the clear warnings to flee sins of every nature.

Oh, I notice you have a verse out of Colosse in your signature. Do you live in Colosse? or attend the church where that letter was written to? If not...

 

Ed,

yer quoting a letter written to a church in the 1st century. Watch out, Amy is going to pounce
:wavey:

 

1. All suicides are murder, so they must be from the same cookie cutter. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'

2. God does cut slack and show grace, but ya gotta repent! Except ye also repent, ye shall likewise perish. (Never mind, that was spoken to Jews and does not apply to us.) Sin on.

3. If one must endure to the end to be saved, then one who does not endure to the end cannot be saved.:sleeping_2:

 

Well, I guess according to you I'm not saved, because I can't even endure a day without sinning. I guess that makes you better than me.

 

Oh, get rid of the OT also, guys. It was written to a different poeple.

 

This is a foolish statement. All scripture was given that the man of God might be perfect. That written in the book of Hebrews is applicable to the christians of today as well. If not, then the Hebrew Jews had to continue in Christ, but we do not in order to be called of His House; in order to be saved.

God is not a respector of persons. If he sends one person to hell for murder, then He has to send all.

If He keeps one murderer who never repented out of hell, then He must keep all out of hell.

Else, He indeed is a respector of persons.

 

Nobody said the message was ONLY for the Jews or the Church it was written to, but still you have to take the things being said in context. You all have turned the very definition of "faith/hope" in Christ and "enduring to the end" into good attitudes towards suffering. You might as well call it "the power of positive thinking". This misreading of scripture that is so prevalent is probably where people like Peale and Schuller got it from!

One of the key areas where you are taking these passages out of context is that all suffering/afflictions is not "suffering for Him". So if a person reacts to modern day mundane sufferings wrongly; it does not constitute a rejection of "suffering for Christ". This used to be used to keep the poor and downtrodden oppressed. "You're suffering for Christ, just be quiet and endure it". You are reading all sorts of foreign concepts into scripture, and causing more distress to the people suffering.
Again, salvation itself is what we hope for. What is this thing other than salvation we should be hoping for, at the threat of forfeiting salvation. What hope could there be that is greater and more important than salvation? You all are teaching false hope.

Again, we all do not listen to Him at times. It does not consititute "turning away from God" just because it is irreversible.

Again, why would we do this? You didn't answer from this morning. This is speaking of unbelievers or perhaps liberal nominal people who tell Christians that sin is OK. That is not what we are doing, and you do not like false accusations against the SDA, so please stop doing it to us.

If anything, it is your type of doctrines that place such a burden on people (suffer with a good attitude OR ELSE!) that is more likely to make people give up. Witness the Catholics, Judaism and other works-righteousness groups where the averagepeople are more worldly than any OSAS church! They give up, and think just doing penance or whatever should hopefully get them in, and even then, they are not sure. So what's the use? You might as well just go on and sin "because there's no hope in the grave where you're going"(Eccl.)! This is the great irony of works-righteousness vs. the Gospel.
(and if you're not sinless, then YOU are the one imposing a burden on others that you "would not lift ewith one of your fingers"-Matt.23)

Hows about the Book, and chapter, at least? (2Cor.6)
"Approved" in that place is not "dokimos" meaning passing a test (as used elsewhere), but rather "commend" (see margin). In the previous chapter, Paul just established the eternal aspect of the hope of salvation, and that we were "abassadors for Christ". V.2, he then quotes from the OT prophecy about "the day of salvation". So we are to "commend" ourselves as the ministers of the Gospel in all of those situations. It is NOT saying you receive "grace" in "vain" if you do not go through any kind of suffering with the right attitude. But this is what many people seem to teach, and the huge Christian teaching industry has grown off of it, with the "hardness" of the burden being what keeps people coming back to buy more books on how to have this "victory" as they call it.