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Pope JPII on Mary the mother of the Redeemer.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Born Again Catholic, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. Born Again Catholic

    Born Again Catholic New Member

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  2. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    I wonder what DHK didn't want us to see.
     
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member

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    It did not take long to see error in the pope's writings here. Third paraghraph....

    "It marks the moment when the Holy Spirit, who had already infused the fullness of grace into Mary of Nazareth,"

    There is no scripture which states such a thing. Mary was never "infused" with grace. She was given in her womb the seed of Christ. Very blessed indeed! If you know of such scripture please post it.

    "In the liturgy the Church salutes Mary of Nazareth as the Church's own beginning,"

    Nowhere in scripture does it state that Mary is the beginning of the Church. Scripture states that Jesus Christ is the beginning of the Church....

    "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"(1 Cor 3:11)

    You see it does not say Mary is the foundation or the beginning. The Catholic church is wrong in declaring it so.

    Ask yourself, does "foundation" mean the "beginning" of something? If you answer yes, then the pope is in error. If your answer is no, please explain how you decided this.

    I didn't have time to read further, but I am sure it doesn't get any better. I will read the rest later.

    God Bless!
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

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    "For other foundation (PETRA) can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"(1 Cor 3:11)

    1 Corinthians 10
    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Luke 1:28, 'And when the Angel had come to her, he said, "Hail full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women'."
     
  6. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter New Member

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    'blessed' means happy
     
  7. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    *sigh* among other things.

    Ever look it up?
     
  8. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter New Member

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    er, and my Bible says

    1:28

    "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail , thoug that art highly favoured, teh Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

    in 1:48 Mary says
    "from henceforth all gernatrions shall call me blessed."

    she did NOT mean they should look on her as the Catholic church has done. I'll bet you if there were tears in heaven, taht would be one major reason for Mary to cry . . .
    [​IMG]
     
  9. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    "highly favoured" isn't the same as "happy," margo.
     
  10. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Lu 1:28
    And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.(KJV)

    Excellent illustration of how the RCC has changed a text to support their doctrine.

    BIG diffeence between being highly favoured and full of grace.

    Joh 1:14
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Is somebody being elevated to a position which she herself would never ascribe to?

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  11. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter New Member

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    I didn't say it was . . .
     
  12. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter New Member

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    Precicesly, av.
    I never said blessed was the same as full of grace, but apparently tragic's Bible says highly favoured equals full of grace .
     
  13. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter New Member

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    NIV-highly favored
    KJV-highly favored
    NKJV-highly favored one
    NASB-favored one
    ESV-favored one
     
  14. FLMike

    FLMike Guest

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    Apparently the same greek word (kecharitomene) is only used in one other place in the bible, in Ephesians 1:6. Check your translations to see if it is translated in terms of "favor" there too. Or don't bother, because I already did and it isn't. I wonder why the same word is translated differently in the two passages? Any guesses?

    A few quotes I scoured off the net:

    "Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of chartoo and means endowed with grace ("charis"), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; (Plummer).[Robertson, Archibald T., Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, 6 volumes, vol. 2, p.13]

    "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass & DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, p.166; Smyth, H.W., Greek Grammar, Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1968, sec. 1852:b. )

    "Luke 1:28...kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellanistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace" (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 )
     
  15. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter New Member

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    So the Eph. passage seems to indicate that we are favored in the same way that Mary was. hmmmmm . . . not what the Catholics would tell us.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

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    Luke 1:28, 'And when the Angel had come to her, he said, "Hail full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women'." </font>[/QUOTE]So that's all you need to get to become queen of the universe - complete with altars fully accessorized with incense pouring and candles-blazing ... then have I got a treat for you!!

    I will "see" your "Full of Grace" and raise you with a "Full of Grace AND Power"!

    That's right folks - get out the name plates and chisels because there is a new guy in town and he is not only full of Grace - he is ALSO full of POWER!.

    With these dual gifts he is fully equipped to be the patron saint of everybody everywhere and will still have loads of power left over for appearances during both Purim and Lent. Hearing all prayers in all places at once, and able to answer those prayers with "Power and Grace to spare".

    He is your ultimate action hero. Be the first to get one of the new Stephen-monogramed altar-and-candle sets for 29.99. But wait! There's more. If you order in the next 25 years you will get a lifetime supply of incense and a plenary indulgence free with your order.

    (offer void where prohibited by Law of God)
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Really? Although Mike sort of beat me to it, here's Strong's definitions:

    thou that art] highly favoured
    New Testament Greek Definition:
    5487 charitoo {khar-ee-to'-o}
    from 5485; TDNT - 9:372,1298; v
    AV - be highly favoured 1, make accepted 1; 2
    1) to make graceful
    1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
    2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour
    3) to honour with blessings
     
  18. FLMike

    FLMike Guest

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    I don't know what the Catholics would tell us. I just know that a greek word that is translated (in some translations) in terms of "favor" in one place is translated in terms of "grace" in another.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

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    I am all about that "full of grace" thing especially when it says "full of grace AND power"!!
     
  20. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Really? Although Mike sort of beat me to it, here's Strong's definitions:

    thou that art] highly favoured
    New Testament Greek Definition:
    5487 charitoo {khar-ee-to'-o}
    from 5485; TDNT - 9:372,1298; v
    AV - be highly favoured 1, make accepted 1; 2
    1) to make graceful
    1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
    2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour
    3) to honour with blessings
    </font>[/QUOTE]Which amply illustrates my point also.
    Nowhere is Mary said to be "full" of grace as was our Lord, and Stephen. Both of whom I might remind you died to the glory of God. Mary just slipped off into nowhere (Scripturally speaking).
    Which would indicate to the discrening reader that God was making a point about Christ's death. (To save sinners) And about Stephen's death. (Martyred for Christ).
    But obviously God saw what was coming with this Mary thing and allowed nothing more to be said about her.

    I don't know about our catholic friends, but to me, that says VOLUMES about Mary's alledged pre-eminence in the church. It appears that Stephen is the BETTER example of grace when compared with Mary.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
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