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Possibly moving my membership, but not a horizontal move,

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Frogman, May 12, 2004.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It was strictly informational pinoybaptist.

    Personally I can study the Word on Sunday, monday...etc school or any other place. If Primitive Baptists don't like the entity called "sunday school" I don't care, they are still my brethren. The Scripture says the Bereans searched the Scripture daily, it doesn't say where or on what day so I take it to allow anywhere, anyplace, anytime to be valid.

    If the "no-hellers" turn out to be right, I don't think there could possibly be a happier person than myself, abundant Scripture apparently to the contrary.

    HankD
     
    #21 HankD, May 13, 2004
  2. Ronald

    Ronald New Member

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    pinoybaptist

    Yes, our Lord said I will build my church....(denoting a future prospect). Also it is important to realize WHAT exactly places us into the church. The bible clearly says it is the Holy Spirit himself. I Cor 12:13. The Apostles were not baptized with the Holy Spirit UNTIL Pentecost. Acts 1:5 and Acts 2:1-3. Also Christian baptism was not administered until Pentecost AFTER our Lord gave his apostles the great commission.
     
    #22 Ronald, May 13, 2004
  3. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    the article mentions the "no-hellers" believing in a "hell". just not one that is of an eternal nature.

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


    the "no-hellers" believe that those in hell will be eventually released.
    meaning that all souls universally against God will be reconciled back to their God.

    (maybe they are the remnant that God has hidden from the majority of this carnal religious world.?)


    Brother Frogman,
    my prayers for you would be to move forward without strife and doubt. allow the childish things to be removed, yet please dont make any final judgements against Gods enemies, for this might be your destiny to be forgiving them wholly in the name of His son.

    just like the "no-hellers" appear to be desiring to Do.

    Me2
     
    #23 Me2, May 13, 2004
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Me2

    HankD
     
    #24 HankD, May 13, 2004
  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Having no desire to repeat the verses given above from Matthew and Acts, I will however give my harmonization of them. I veiw our Lord's declaration in Matthew 6 as the conception of the NT church. From thence until the day of Pentecost, the NT church existed in embryonic form. (Howelse could we validly apply our Lord's instructions concerning discipline, the commemoration of our Lord's last Passover dinner, the Great Commission, ect. to ourselves and our assemblies, if He was not forming His church in the womb?) The birth of the NT church occured on the day of Pentecost.

    Does this model cover all the possible questions? Problably not, but then I've learned not to try to answer all of my theological questions with Aristolian precision. IMHO, them that do usually end up like a theological CAPT Queeg YMMV.
     
    #25 Squire Robertsson, May 13, 2004
  6. ZeroTX

    ZeroTX Member
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    "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)

    By "the church" here, Jesus is referring to the larger body of believers.... if you don't believe one person, get two or three... don't believe two or three? Listen to the big group of believers (the church).

    Notice it's not "The Church" or "Mother Church" as Catholics would refer to it.... ;) The universal church of Christ is the universal body of believers, wherever they may come together, both then and now.

    My .02

    -Michael
     
    #26 ZeroTX, May 13, 2004
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    HankD said:

    make that two of us.

    Ronald:

    I think we are talking here of a local, visible New Testament church, not a universal, invisible one.

    The first local, visible, NT church was organized on the shores of Ceasaria Philippi (oooppps, almost typed -nes :D ) with the first rules being rules of discipline in Matthew 18:17.

    These were made up of the 120 souls which were in the upper room. In Luke 24:48 they were instucted to wait in Jerusalem until they were endued (granted) power from on high (and that is because the founder, Jesus Christ, will send His replacement, the Holy Spirit, see John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7).

    Their empowerment happened in Acts 2 when 3,000 souls and then 5,000 afterwards were added unto them. The church was not founded on Pentecost otherwise its founder would have been the Holy Spirit.
     
    #27 pinoybaptist, May 13, 2004
  8. Ronald

    Ronald New Member

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    ZeroTX

    The noun used here for "church" does not mean "the Christian church" at all. But simply means an "ecclessia" or an assembly of people. At the time our Lord was speaking to the Apostles in Matt 18 there was no spirit filled church period and no one was baptized under a trinitarian formula. What was present was Jesus as the Messiah speaking to an assembly of very devout Jewish followers. The Apostles AT THAT TIME knew nothing of the gospel, for Christ was yet to die and be raised. So the new covenant was not even in effect.

    When one speaks of the "church OF Christ, one must determine what makes this church a Christian church to begin with. This is why Paul OFTEN uses the phrase "the church OF Christ" in his epistles, to distinguish it from just another assembly of people. The fact remains that the CHURCH OF CHRIST was not called by that distinction until AFTER Pentecost.

    E.W.Bullinger. O'Hare and C.R.Stam all gave powerful arguments that the "church of Christ" really didn't begin until Paul's ministry. They held to the position that the church in Acts 2 was a "Jewish church" or messianic church and the church Paul spoke of in Eph 2 really didn't appear until he began his ministry.

    No matter what position one chooses, the church OF Christ could not have begun until AFTER Pentecost.
     
    #28 Ronald, May 13, 2004
  9. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Frogman noted:
    Bro. Dallas.

    It might be an issue with some and not for others. I know of some who would have a problem with it, and some who would not. It would be difficult to preach it in any Primitive Baptist Church that I am aware of, because the vast majority of us (95+%) are amillenialsts. I think from your list of things this is the only major difference we have. Oh -- in the mountains you have to learn how to sing the mournful sound. If you can't or don't, you won't be singing with us. ;)

    Jeff
     
    #29 Jeff Weaver, May 13, 2004
  10. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    Bro. Jeff wrote:
    You're right about that. The way many of us sing is pretty sad. :D

    I'll also have to concur with you're statement about the pre-mil & a-mil thing.

    I don't think I know ofany PB church that would allow it to be preached in their pulpit, but I don't think most would make it a test of fellowship if you didn't preach it.

    As a comparison, many PB's believe that God turned his back upon Jesus during the 3 hours of darkness because God can not look upon sin. On the contrary, there are some people and preachers who believe He just withdrew His presence from Christ. Around these parts, at least, most folks hold to the former explanation. Those don't want to hear the latter preached in their churches and the former folks understand that. It is not made a test of fellowship, even though everyone knows what everyone else believes on the matter because it is not expressly revealed in scripture. As long as one side or the other doesn't pound their thoughts on the matter to the other side, especially during the preaching, then we all get along just fidne and we're very much in fellowship.

    I think the same would be the case in your instance Bro. Dallas.
     
    #30 Bro. James Reed, May 13, 2004
  11. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    that is a hard saying, and i tend to lean in belief of the same, but still am trying to reconsile this, praying not to make a mistake or being caught up in the fact of not ever wanting to witness.
     
    #31 massdak, May 13, 2004
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear massdak,
    The belief in limited atonement, as I believe it, in no way leads one to not witness. IN fact, it serves to operate much the same as Grace, imho, it provides a surety for us that witness, that preaching, is not in hopes that someone, somewhere will make a choice for Christ.

    I realize many will make the claim that the effect of this teaching is to hinder gospel preaching. But, that can't get very far in light of historical documentation of the actions of Primitive, Particular and other Baptist groups holding to this as a dear truth.

    Brother Jeff and Brother James,
    The group of believers I am preaching for in Cookeville are amill (some say they hope for pre-mil).

    The preacher there before me was and remains amil and we have had no problems.

    The greatest difficulty in this will not be the pre-mil, pre-trib, but what that leads to, as the 1000 yr. reign of Christ from Jerusalem.

    But in discussing it with that man during a preaching appointment where he now pastors, I can see the amil side so I don't see a problem there.

    My concern is what my heart continues to lead me toward regarding soteriology. That is all I can say for now, that I am in full agreement with spiritual regeneration and gospel conversion.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #32 Frogman, May 13, 2004
  13. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Finally, someone understands!!!!! It is the only way to make it all work.
     
    #33 Jeff Weaver, May 13, 2004
  14. Ronald

    Ronald New Member

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    The difficulties in denying that Christ is the Savior of all men

    1. It goes against the plain witness of scripture and the sincerity of God-2 Peter 3:9, Rev 22:17

    a-That ALL we like sheep have gone astray and that Christ died for sinners and the ungodly and not just some.Isa 53:6

    b. That Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD I Jon 2:2, I Tim 4:10

    c.Christ is the lamb that takes away the sins of the WORLD John 1:29, 2 Cor 5:19

    d.That it becomes a lie when you tell a sinner you are witnessing to, that Christ died for him. For if you believe in a limited atonement, you can only claim Christ died for the elect and not for all sinners

    e-Christ said to preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. Would God give a message of salvation to every man, if he wasn't sincere in offering salvation to all?
     
    #34 Ronald, May 13, 2004
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Brother,

    Then all men shall be saved, note:

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matt. 1.21

    Do you believe all shall be saved? If not, then who are his people ? Did he save all the Jews only? Or do we believe even as they [Peter] that we too shall be saved through the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ? Acts 15.11 [paraphrased]


    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Where does limited atonement contradict this? From beginning of the passage [btw, beginning with the Spirit], there is a distinction of him that is athirst This is the whosoever will and these will take of the water of life freely .

    Is God insincere?

    2 Peter 3.9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    This is not even addressing the lost ; it is addressing regenerated children of God, of the many truths taught here, nowhere is seen a promise of God to save man by any means apart from His own will. This goes back to the original question, if God is thought to be insincere, and it is said here he is not willing that any [meaning all persons conceived] should perish, then the sincerity of God is not brought into question until you see that not all are saved [brought to repentance].

    It is God that is not willing so then, it is God that must complete the passage by bringing all men to repentance, or else He becomes insincere, but not because some do not hear, do not thirst, and are not able to freely take of the water of life, but because He declares His unwillingness to let any perish, but that all should come to repentance, will God fail to perform His will?


    There is nothing taught by limited atonement that declares that the elect are not sinners, that they have not gone astray, that they are not by nature children of wrath and ungodly.

    There is nothing taught by limited atonement that denies this, see Romans 8.22, Rev. 21.1.

    Only God knows the end from the beginning, how could I be lying when I do not know any one of the elect? There is no hindrance in telling it to all men, those for whom Christ died will then experience gospel conversion because they have the quickening of the spirit, the flesh on the other hand, profits nothing.

    Yes, and so should all God called men preach the gospel where ever the door of utterance is opened to them, holding back nothing of the counsel of God, desiring not the favor of men, seeking not those who can best support the church, but in all of it, knowing that God shall save his anointed (Ps. 20); Daniel 4.35; Rom. 9.14-24.

    No, God is not insincere, even as you began your post with Rev. 22.17, there is a suitable place to close, the preaching of the gospel is not to be discriminately preached where we choose, but is to be preached throughout the world, Rev. 22.17 I believe confirms that, but the distinction is that him that is athirst is the one who will take freely of the water of life; does a man who is not thirsty seek to drink? Does a thirsty man fear the drink will drown him?

    See, in light of scriptural teaching, there is no difficulty with limited atonement.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #35 Frogman, May 13, 2004
  16. Ronald

    Ronald New Member

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    Bro Dallas

    The sacrifice of Christ on the cross saves NO one without faith. The sacrifice of Christ was PROVIDED by the Father.John 3:16. But the sinner cannot appropriate the benefits of that sacrifice without faith. As in the OT when the priest would offer atonement sacrifices, the children of Israel still had to present themselves before the priest for the atonement to be effectual.

    In the same manner, even AFTER we are Christians we still need to CONFESS our sins before God BEFORE they are cleansed. I John 5:7-9.The death of Christ is offered for all men, if they will come to Christ in faith and receive his cleansing. Rev 22:17 I john 2:2
     
    #36 Ronald, May 14, 2004
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    And still no disproval of the Biblical doctrine of limited atonement. All men will not come to Christ and believe, of those who will come, it is impossible to please God except they have faith and believe that He is and He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. (Heb. 11.6).

    Now, either salvation is a reward for diligently seeking God, (when the Bible declares elsewhere there is none who seek him), and He is sought by those who have faith and believe that He is, because without first having faith, none are able to please him, so still coming to him is not the action that pleases him, the action that pleases him is that His only Begotten Son has come into the world seeking to do the will of Him that sent Him and not His own will.

    Further, Christ is intercessor and not one of His prayers can or will be denied by the Father (John 17) the Spirit causes us to utter the things we do not even have sense enough to know we are in need of; do you think a sin committed in ignorance will go unpunished, even though it is not known or recognized? Or will the Husbandman send forth His Worker into the field and purge that branch of its blight?

    I am resting in the intercession of the eternal Son of God alone, that is all. I did not know I had a need of a physician, what is meant by physician heal thyself? I did not know I had need of His providing himself an offering through the eternal Spirit of God by the altar of the body prepared for him, tabernacling among men, being God with us.

    We speak that which we have seen and do know, we see him no more after the flesh, but we know him, we have handled him and he has handled us, which one of us looking for that eternal city made not with hands has a mind to return to our old country? Which one of us of our own mind, will and purpose desired to leave the city and country of sinful lusts and desires until and only after God has called us out of Ur, the land of our fathers and each of our homelands? Which one of us would fail to return to that place were it not for the Father is the Husbandman, the Son is the Vine, and we are but branches, what vine is brought forth from its branches? Without a root, and if the root be holy, the lump also is holy.

    Please, show me how whosover will denies limited atonement, when scripture plainly states that he who is athirst, he who labors and is heavy burdened, he who has ears and hears, he who has eyes and sees, will come and will freely take of the water of life.

    I have not denied whosoever will.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #37 Frogman, May 14, 2004
  18. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    A question Frogman.

    Why would God say salvation was for all men and then chose himself who he would save?

    If God wanted to make the choice He could have simply created those people and not have gone through the whole Garden of Eden scenario.

    The way I understand it God wants us to chose Him. Not the otherway around.
     
    #38 menageriekeeper, May 14, 2004
  19. Ronald

    Ronald New Member

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    Bro Dallas

    There is no issue that whosoever WILL or more literally whoever is WILLING may come and drink of the waters FREELY. This invitation is for ALL men. Wouldn't you agree? If it is for all men then certainly all men could be saved if they chose to or else we have a very insincere God. And I don't believe you think God is not sincere do you?

    Now NO MAN can come to Christ unless he is drawn by the Spirit. Now notice I said drawn, not hog tied. But just how does God the Father draw men to Christ? Man is drawn to Christ BY THE GOSPEL. For the word of God comes not just in word only, but in the power of the Holy Spirit.I Thess 1:5. Now does this mean every man who comes under the the power of the gospel will choose to believe ON the Lord Jesus Christ? NO! For the bible abundantly shows this was and is not the case. Acts 7:51, Acts 26:28,John 5:40.

    It is not that men CAN'T come to our Lord Jesus Christ when convicted by the power of the gospel, but that there are sinners who WILL NOT come. He or she is not willing.John 5:40 There is a vast difference between inability and willing resistance to the call while under the influence of the gospel. I have personally seen men and women with tears flowing down their cheeks, KNOWING they should receive Christ that very day, but refused or put off their decision to do so. The failure lies not with our God, but in the heart of sinful man. He is not WILLING to give up the sin he LOVES so much. Whether it be alcohol, immorality, drugs or just admitting they are lost.

    You know Bro Dallas there are SO MANY in America who say, "well I'm not so bad, I don't lie, cheat or steal. I'm a decent sort." These are the worst. You know why? Because they're self righteous. God can't save a sinner who can't admit they are L-O-S-T.

    Did you know there is no difference between the elect and the non saved before one's salvation? There's none. Oh sure, God knew you would come to his Son when drawn by the gospel. But before that time, you and I were filthy, rotten, no good, lost sinners before God just as much as sinners are today. Rom 5:8

    God is no respecter of persons. ALL sinners are ungodly. All sinners are under the wrath of God. There are no exceptions. So if all were lost sheep before they believed, then just how many sheep did Jesus lay down his life for? The bible says ALL. Isa. 53:6, I John 2:2. If Christ did not lay down his life for ALL the sheep and if he is not the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD then we are calling God a liar. Is that what you want to believe?
     
    #39 Ronald, May 14, 2004
  20. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Where did God say salvation is/was for all men?

    If it is, then the 'no-hellers' are proved correct, imho. Can God fail to bring to pass what He has decreed? Then if he has decreed salvation for all men, has he not failed when some men reject him?

    this last question can be addressed by both or any believing God has declared salvation is for all men.

    I do not wish to double post, so I will address Bro. Ronald's post later.

    Bro. Dallas

    Somebody say something, so I can respond to Brother Ron's post without double posting ;)

    Brother Ron, in your post, you make several assumptions of what I believe. I never said God was insincere. I have never said that Salvation by Grace was not free, I never said that whosoever will may not come, I never said that the elect are any different than the lost, I also will not claim that there is equality with me and any one of the lost but that there was something within me [apart from a regenerated, quickened from death in sin and trespass] that did draw me to God through Christ and will draw me by cords of love.

    I believe the elect are sanctified through the Spirit to the belief of the truth. I do not believe any person will come to Christ simply by hearing the Gospel preached. What is it that makes the power in the preached gospel effectual for me and you and not for another non believer?

    That is the essence of the question, it has nothing to do with whether or not whosoever will or whether they will not.

    Bro. Dallas

    [ May 14, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
    #40 Frogman, May 14, 2004
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