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Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Jul 6, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    One argument consistently made by the RC posts on this message area is that the dead are in fact "The Alive in Christ".

    So when we see 1 Thess 4 speak of those who "Are Asleep" and speak of the "Dead in Christ" - every effort is made to turn that aside so that all those who have died - are to be considered "instead" as "The Alive in Christ".

    And then in support of that we have Matt 17 - Where the claim is made that Christ is speaking to the "Alive in Christ" - who have died but have not yet been raised from the dead.

    In God's Word we are told NOT to conjur up the dead - or to hold seances etc etc.

    But the argument made by the RC side so far - would LIMIT that to "Not conjuring up physically dead BODIES" since (using their logic so far) " the SPIRITS of the dead are just FINE to conjure as we see in MAtt 17".

    Comments?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Jul 6, 2003
  2. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Bob,

    Those in heaven are not dead, and they are not "conjured up" but asked for intercession on behalf of those on earth.

    Jesus woke the dead though. He raised them from the tomb: "And when the dead sit up, the party is over" (Mark Lowry)
     
    #2 Brother Adam, Jul 6, 2003
  3. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    How many have you raised or seen raised?
     
    #3 Yelsew, Jul 6, 2003
  4. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    That was deep.
     
    #4 Brother Adam, Jul 6, 2003
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The point remains - IF you conclude that Moses is dead - then in Matt 17 - Christ is speaking to the dead.

    You may "try" to insert a distinction such that Moses is ALIVE IN CHRIST (as already stated) but only his BODY is dead. Then you may argue that Christ is NOT talking to the dead in Matt 17 but to the LIVING spirit of Moses.

    Fine. That LEAVES you with the IMPOSSIBLE instruction in the bible AGAINST conjuring up the dead to MEAN - that You can GO AHEAD with the SCEANCE and GO AHEAD with conjuring those who have died AS LONG as it is their SPIRIT and NOT their DEAD BODIES that rot in the grave - that you are "conjuring".

    However NO such dead-body-restriction is found in scripture. It is in fact the spirits of the dead that we are NOT to conjur up - so CALL them what you will - the restriction is there, and Paul calls them "the Dead in Christ".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Jul 6, 2003
  6. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Bob --

    Your post is so full of it I hardly know where to begin.

    Catholics do not conduct "seances" as you insist. The Church conducts rigorous investigation to prove that those to whom we address our petitions are indeed saints who are in the presence of God. This includes the need for 2 MEDICALLY VERIFIABLE miracles of healing in response to having petitioned that particular believer before their sainthood.

    A seance, on the other hand, is a general call to the "spirits of the dead", done without any reference to the Christian Gospel or the work of Christ. It is a promiscuous call to any and all spirits who will answer it, and therefore leaves people open to delusion, such as in the case of John Edwards (is that the TV necromancer? I don't watch him).

    Seances lead to deception, for the "loved one" who is contacted always assures others that they are happy and content where they are -- even if they were notorious alcoholics, fornicators, God blasphemers, or some other form of great sinner. The idea is given to those in the seance "Well, if Uncle Teddy is okay, and I know what a "ladies man" he was (what a nice euphemism for sin), then I have nothing to fear either.

    On the other hand, the lives of the saints are exemplery and challenge us to emulate them in their obedience to and love for Christ Jesus the Lord.

    You refuse to admit that there is a communion of the saints, a wider body of believers who have Christ Jesus as their common foundation, whether here on earth or in the realm and reality of Heaven. So really, no answer will do for you, will it? Just another lame attempt to try to discredit the Church by pointing out something you don't agree with and your arguments against it.
     
    #6 CatholicConvert, Jul 7, 2003
  7. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    How many have you raised or seen raised? </font>[/QUOTE]This will get the usual criticism that miracles in the Catholic Church get. So be it. Last time I was in Leaflet Missal (it's a catholic store), I saw a book documenting over 300 cases in which Catholic saints throughout the ages have raised the dead. If you go to goolge.com and type in saint AND "raised the dead" You will see some of them. St. Dominc, St. Stansilas, St. Patrick, and many more.
     
    #7 thessalonian, Jul 7, 2003
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    So according to what you have just explained Samuel would not be considered a saint or a believer. Saul, by means of a medium, wanted to speak to Samuel. Samuel did appear to him. How would you account for this?
     
    #8 DHK, Jul 7, 2003
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    What is it that I am supposed to understand from this thread?

    That prayer and conjuring are the same?

    What is the point here?
     
    #9 trying2understand, Jul 7, 2003
  10. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    I direct you to the book of Revelation....the elders (saints) are praying.

    They are in heaven along with everyone else...they aren't praying for those in heaven...who are they praying for?


    LaRae
     
    #10 LaRae, Jul 7, 2003
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    A dead person is just that--a dead person. Bob may have a different theology than I, being a SDA, but I do see his point nevertheless. At death the body is dead. The Bible commands us not to pray to the dead; not to pray to dead spirits. To pray to dead spirits or to the dead is known as necromancy. I believe that is what Bob is accusing you of. Whether you equate that with conuring up spirits or not is totally irrelevant. The Japanese Shintos pray to their ancestral spirits without seances and conjuring up any spirits. They even leave offerings out for them. The govenor general of Quebec in Canada is a spiritist who prays to her grand-parents on a regular basis, though they be dead. What is the difference between that and the Roman Catholic Church praying to the dead. You pray to Mary and other "saints." They are not alive. Their corpses are rotting in the earth. They are dead. That is necromancy condemned in the Bible. Why do you pray to the dead?
    DHK
     
    #11 DHK, Jul 7, 2003
  12. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Just a thought:

    "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

    Yes? No? Maybe? [​IMG]
     
    #12 BrianT, Jul 7, 2003
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Just a thought:

    "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

    Yes? No? Maybe? [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
    27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    Originally the Lord was speaking to Moses telling him that Jehovah God was still the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that is, the God of the living. For all these Old Testament saints were alive in Paradise though their bodies were buried and dead in the grave--the same as today. We as well as they (i.e., the saved) await the resurrection of the just).
    DHK
     
    #13 DHK, Jul 7, 2003
  14. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Yes, that is my point - Catholics aren't praying to dead bodies, but to the spirits that are alive.

    I am carefully considering Rev 5 and Rev 8, which have spirits in heaven offering prayers of saints to God. In other words, the prayers didn't go directly to God! As a Protestant, it surprised me I didn't notice this simple fact before.

    In Psalm 103 and 148, David calls on angels and the host in heaven to "Bless the Lord". Is this "conjuring" or "necromancy"? I don't think so.

    Seances, and the example of Samuel, are about contacting the dead *to gain information*. That's what "conjuring" is. That's what makes it different.
     
    #14 BrianT, Jul 7, 2003
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    A witch doesn't pray to a dead body either. Neither does a Shintoist or spirtist. They all pray to the spirit of the person, just as you pray to the spirit of the saints in Heaven. It is a practice that is condemned by the Scriptures. No one prays to a corpse. We all know that. But there are many that pray to the spirit that has left the corpse. That is what is condemned.
    DHK
     
    #15 DHK, Jul 7, 2003
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Exactly DHK!

    The practice that is condemned in conjuring up the dead - is not a condemnation of dragging decaying, rotting corpses out of the ground (as some of our RC bretheren prefer to think of it - apparently) but RATHER the practice of calling up the spirits of the dead.

    HOWEVER the RC argument is consistently that the seance of the witch of Endor AND the actions of Christ in Matt 17 are true - real examples of calling up the spirits of the dead and that this is "just fine" for Christians to practice since they are not in fact - hauling up corpses out of the ground.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Jul 7, 2003
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Neither Rev 5 or Rev 8 show "spirits offering prayers" -

    NOR do those chapters show "Saints praying TO spirits" INSTEAD of the prayers going TO spirits - the prayers go TO God.

    Amazing - EVEN though the text says the prayers were going TO GOD and not TO any "spirit" - YET the RC view is "SEE prayers are not going TO GOD".

    There is NO indication in ALL of scripture that ANY saint EVER prays TO anyone BUT GOD alone.

    Christ Himself taught us to pray "Our Father who is in heaven Hallowed be THY name".

    We have been given NO example in all of scripture of any saint praying to anyone but God Alone.

    Obviously - NONE of those beings in heaven are dead NOR are they between death and resurrection NOR are they even human NOR are they being "prayed to" any more than the HILLS that David addresses is song are "prayed to".

    What a hoot! Nowhere in scripture does it say "go ahead and bring up the dead - contact the dead but NOT for the purpose of gaining information".

    Most RC examples of contacting dead saints - are for the purpose of gaining blessings, informnation, guidance, wisdom, advantage, health etc.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Jul 7, 2003
  18. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Your point earlier was that they do, unless I misunderstood you.

    No, what is condemned is conjuring and necromancy, which is summoning the dead for information. I already discussed this, and examples in Psalms and Revelation where prayers are made that don't go directly to God. Care to comment on them?

    BTW, I see you're from Edmonton. I work in Edmonton, but live in Stony Plain - where do you attend church? [​IMG]
     
    #18 BrianT, Jul 7, 2003
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This argument is of the form "We pray to the RIGHT dead - not the WRONG dead". And of course you would extend this to Matt 17 as Christ "conjuring up the RIGHT dead" and 1 Sam 28 is argued by our RC bretheren "contact of the right dead - but asking the wrong question of the dead".

    However the bible does NOT stipulate that "Only contacting the WRONG dead" is a problem.

    The Bible does NOT say that "asking the right dead the WRONG question should get you killed".

    Rather if FORBIDS contact with the dead spirits (or spirits of the dead if you prefer)- no seances (to the bad dead OR even to the DEAD in Christ) - no conjuring up the dead spirits - not even ONE - not even if you promise to only ask the right questions.

    And - as already pointed out - this is NOT an injunction about trying to converse with a corpse (as some of our Catholic bretheren here have tried to claim).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Jul 7, 2003
  20. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    The 24 elders are tree stumps? [​IMG] Why are the prayers not going *directly* to God from humans still living on earth?

    Yes, to God, but not directly.

    Scripture repeatedly tells us to pray for each other, and ask each other to pray for us (1 Timothy 2:1–4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, etc.) "Pray" means to make a request or entreaty, and only in recent times people have forgot this primary meaning of the word. "I pray thee, pass the potatoes if thou mindest not" - asking someone to do something for you. [​IMG] Why is "praying" to a saint living in heaven to pray for you any different fundamentally then "praying" to a saint living on earth to pray for you?

    So the "hosts" don't included believers in heaven?

    Do you not understand the fundamental difference between prayer and conjuring? Or are you just trying to be antagonistic? [​IMG]
     
    #20 BrianT, Jul 7, 2003
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