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pre-trib..mid-trib..post trib....

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Spirit and Truth, Apr 10, 2004.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Matthew 22:29B (KJV1769):

    ... Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    Hebrews 11:32-40 (HCSB):

    And what more can I say? Time is too short for me to tell
    about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel
    and the prophets,
    33 who by faith conquered kingdoms,
    administered justice, obtained promises,
    shut the mouths of lions,
    34 quenched the raging of fire, escaped the edge of the sword,
    gained strength after being weak, became mighty in battle,
    and put foreign armies to flight.
    35 Women received their dead raised to life again.
    Some men were tortured, not accepting release,
    so that they might gain a better resurrection,
    36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings,
    as well as bonds and imprisonment.
    37 They were stoned, they were sawed in two,
    they died by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins,
    in goatskins, destitute, afflicted, and mistreated.
    38 The world was not worthy of them.

    They wandered in deserts, mountains, caves,
    and holes in the ground.
    39 All these were approved through their faith,
    but they did not receive what was promised,
    40 since God had provided something better for us,
    so that they would not be made perfect without us.

    Do you desire a better resuurection?
    Did God call you to be a Martyr for the name of Jesus?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. MalkyEL

    MalkyEL Guest

    Ed wrote:
    Do you desire a better resuurection?
    Did God call you to be a Martyr for the name of Jesus?

    MalkyElahh: YES
     
  3. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Ed "Do you desire a better resuurection?
    Did God call you to be a Martyr for the name of Jesus?"

    Did Jesus die at the hands of those who rejected Him, by His own choice and will, but nevertheless an example of total committment to the will of God?

    The call is full obedience to the will of God and that may mean death for some proclaiming Jesus Christ.

    Which of the apostles were martyred because they would not deny Christ?

    Did Stephen die, while proclaiming Christ?

    Will we suffer at the hands of those who reject Christ?

    Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


    Some won't make that level of committment, of saying 'Yes Lord, no matter what.':

    Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

    Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

    We, ourselves, may not give our lives for our Lord, but many have, and many will. God's will be done for each.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Matthew 24:13 (nKJV):

    1. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

    What system of logic automatically allows, given
    that statement that the following statement is true?

    2. He who endures NOT to the end shall NOT be saved.

    The NARY system of logic.
    Nary a system of logic lets you automatically
    show the second statement, given the first statement
    is true. The second statement HAS to be proved
    independant of the first (and proved by the Bible
    in the Christian mode of proving things).

    So, prove the statement true from the Bible.
    Those who cannot prove this statement from the Bible:

    2. He who endures NOT to the end shall NOT be saved.

    Add to the Bible (Matthew 24:13 does not have the "not"s in
    them.)

    [​IMG]
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    You HAVE TO accept what God's Word saying, you cannot wrestle or resisting with God's Word.

    Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13 both are very clear teaching us, that we ought to be endure all the way to end, means we must be faithful all the way to our death or Lord comes.

    Same with Rev. 2:10 tells us, "be thou FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH", it commands us, that we ought to be endure all the way through our life unto death, then shall be saved. Or, if we give up in the half way during life till death, then shalt not be saved.

    In another word, Matt 24:13 telling us, we must be faithful while face trials, and persecutions, we have to bear them all the way to the end.

    Cannot you understand and accept the clear truth from Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13?

    Accept it and obey what Christ saying.

    Later, I will continue discuss more about pretribulational background.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: "Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13 both are very clear teaching us,
    that we ought to be endure all the way to end,
    means we must be faithful all the way to our death or Lord comes."

    Sorry, Dear Friend, you fail basic Bible reading
    and miss out on the Blessed Hope that is in Messiah Yeshua.
    My understanding of the Bible is that the Bible
    teaches we shall endure to the end.

    DeafPosttrib: "You HAVE TO accept what God's Word saying, ... "

    Note that because of the Doctrine of the Priesthood
    of the Believer, i do NOT have to ACCEPT
    your understanding of what God's written word says.

    BTW, Matthew 24:13 is a description of the church age
    (gentile age, time of the gentiles, this evil age, etc)
    NOT of the Tribulation period. the Tribulation period judgement
    is seperate from and distinct from the church age,
    having a different purpose from the church age,
    and having a different meanign in God's economy.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Let's take a critical look at Moses and the multitude of freed Hebrew slaves. How many were there including women and children? How much water did they need to survive for one day? How about food, housing, and sanitation? Pharoah had them backed up to the sea ready to end their careers. Did God take them out of the situation. No...He brought them through it and did a miracle that would be talked about for all time. God still has plenty of miracles left.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Spirit and Truth: "Please give me an
    explanation of Matthew 24:21."

    To do that I need you to agree to the correctness of my
    outline of Matthew 24-25 is correct. My outline
    of Matthew 24-25 is the second post here, on page one,
    if you call the initial post "0".
    My outline of Matthew 24-25 is the third post,
    if you call your initial post "1".
    Isn't that interesting! We can use "second" or
    "third" to represent the same post -- interesting, yes?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    you saying, Matt. 24:13 deals within Church Age only, NOT in Tribulation period.

    No.

    Matt 24:13 deals within the last days from Early Church to the second coming of Christ at the end of this age.

    Many Christians already suffering persecutions and killed in the past, they had endured with them till their death, even in the future, many Christians will suffering persecutions under Antichrist's reign, they shall endure with them till their death as martyr.

    Matt. 24:13 deals with tribulations and persecutions in the past, present, and future within this age till the end of the age at the coming of Christ.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    Oh yes, Christ answered disciples' question about the signs and the end of the age. Christ tells us, we shall see the signs appearing everywhere show us, His coming draw closer - Matt 24:32-33.

     
  11. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    Ok, Here I go,

    You fellas will probably react like shark to fresh bloody meat but I have to weigh in.

    The elect of Matthew 24:25 refer to the strength of deception that will be put forth by the anti christ and the beast. It will be of such overwhelming believableness that if it were possible to decieve the elect, this would do it.
    24:31 refers to the elect of the age of the tribulation that will be gathered after Christ has appeared and destroyed the beast and anti christ. They are gathered so as to preserve them from the judgement to come on those who did not believe during the tribulation period. This is not a gathering of all saints, only those who recieved Christ during the tribulation, all saints previous to the tribulation are with Christ as He returns.

    BTW, Matt. 24 & 25 have NOTHING to do with the rapture, they deal with the end of the tribulation and 45 days of judgement and correction upon the earth before the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ. This also gives insight to the state of the millennial kingdom.

    Next we have to remember that other than a spiritual heritage, Godly trueths, and the line of Christ, there is no connection between the nation of Israel and the New Testament church. These are completely different economies of God.

    What is an economy of God? I'm glad you asked, it is the working of God through men in order to show them and prove to them that it is the wickedness of their hearts that has caused them to sin against Him. The final economy is the LITERAL, Millennial reign of Christ on this earth in which Satan is bound and cast into a bottomless pit. Christ will rule with a rod of iron and the earth will be in a complete state of perfection. But still, the wickedness of mans heart will cause some to reject Christ, and still others to openly disobey His rule. At the end of the economy Satan is loosed for a period of 1 minate to 999 years (what ever an eternal God considers a "little season") and bring people from a perfect world into a state of final rebellion which will be crushed by Christ saying "Your Dead" (Thou Artest Deadest for the KJVO crowd). So what is the point, the point of the end game or eschatology is that it is God's way to prove to man that it was not the fault of Satan for the sin of this world, it was the fault of a desperately wicked heart of man.

    Also, the tribulation is not for the church, there is no scripture that proves that the church is involved in the time of tribulation, unless you spiritualize it and take it out of context and apply figurative interpretation to prophecy. There is no manliness in going through the tribulation, it is the hardest way to live. The tribulation is God's work of bringing the nation of Israel to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as well as to prove to man just how wicked he can be when the restraining power of the Holy Spirit is lifted.
     
  12. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    HEY DEAFPOSTTRIB!!

    Your hermeneutics is on backwards and crooked dude. Better straighten it before someone else sees it.

    In Love
     
  13. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    The rapture before tribulation!

    "AS" means "for example". On other word, "as" means "same." You are as hungry as I am.

    You heard a tornado sound as a train sound. They are SAME sound alike.

    Notice "come up."

    The Greek word for "come" on Rev. 4:1 is anabaino. This Greek word means to ascend (up), go up, come (up). Therefore anabaino (ascend) refers to the rapture.
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    jshurley04,

    Does not make a sense to me.

    Bible clearly teaching us, God cuts any individual who stop believing and do not abide or endure - Matt 24:13; John 15:6; and Romans 11:19-23.

    Why word, 'elect' of Matt 24:24?

    Firstly, elect means chosen.

    Elect is believer.

    But, more than that.

    In 2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence TO MAKE your calling and election sure: for IF YE DO THESE THINGS, ye shall never fall:" It tells us, we are elect of God, IF we do these things we shall not fall, means we ought to obey Christ's commandments. God knows every individuals which is elect, anyone who obey God's calling and commandments.

    Do not blame on God for allow elect go to hell, They are responsible for make their own choice by decision, they could be deceived for believing the lies, because they do not keep God's commandments.

    Rev. 14:9-12 warns us, if any person worshipping the Antichrist, received the mark of the beast, will go to everlasting fire, that why we have to keep the commandments of God according to John 14:15.

    No, God does not perserve elect, who disobey Him, and not keep the commandment, God allows them to be deceived because they make their own choice and decision.

    Many saints already died in the past, are now with the Lord in the heaven, I have no problem with it, of course, when Christ shall come, the saints who are now in the heaven, shall come WITH Christ at the second coming.

    There is no difference between resurrection and gathering together of the saints.

    Our gathering together cannot be occur yet TILL resurrection of the saints MUST occur first - 1 Thess 4:16-17. So, therefore, all saints who already died in the past in the past, are now with the Lord in the heaven, they are only soul, their bodies leave in the graves. When Christ comes, they will be unity with their body and soul both together at teh resurrection, THEN, remain left of alive saints shall be gathering together at Lord's coming.

    The gathering together does NOT limited to the saints in the tribulation period on earth only. The gathering together for WHOLE saints of all ages from above, and bottom. Mark 13:27 - "from the utter most part of the earth TO THE UTTERMOST PART OF HEAVEN." Obivously, it tells us, the gathering together of all saints both in heaven and earth at same time at the coming of Christ.

    Remember, word, 'rapture' does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Rapture means caught up, also, rapture means gathering together. Rapture includes harvest.

    Remember, harvest means gathering.

    There is no difference between rapture and harvest, both are same.

    Matt 13:29 says, "gather the wheat into my barn". 'Gather' of Matt 13:29 is same describe as 1 Thess 4:17 - 'together', also, 2 Thess 2:1 -'gathering together'. Matt 25:32 says, "gathered all nations". It is the picture of harvest/rapture.

    The Bible teaches us, there shall be only ONE harvest in the last day, no other else.

    Yes, the Bible teaches us, Church is facing tribulations - John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3-4; 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 2 Thess. 1:4-6; 1 Peter 2:21; 1 Peter 4:12-16. Church are now in tribulations since Early Church to now, and will continue till Christ comes with his angels.

    The Bible never promise us, that we shall escape from tribulations and persecutions. We are appointed for tribulations, because Christ suffered on the cross for us - 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

    Yes, Church is go through great tribulation all the way till Christ comes with angels.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  15. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    Very Badly my friend.
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Askjo,

    The angel said to John, "Come up hither", John himself was called up only, not the Church.

    "Come up hither" do nothing with rapture.

    I have an illustration on 'come up hither':

    Chris plays softball game with his friends outside at Chris' home yard. A boy pitchs ball toward Chris, Chris swings with the bat hit ball. Then, ball flys in the air. Ball hits Chris' house on the second floor in his parent's bedroom. While Chris' Dad reading newspaper in the living room, sudden, Dad hears noise something up. Then, Dad walks upstair to check something what's going on. He discovers the window broken in his bedroom. He walks toward broken window, he notices Chris with his friends outside through the broken window. Dad yells to Chris, "Chris! Please come up hither now!". Chris immediately run to his house, then go upstair to meet Dad in the bedroom. Dad points Chris at the broken window, he rebukes Chris about it.

    That is the picture of John's vision, that he saw the vision of angel asked him, to come up hither(here). If suppose, I am in John's shoe, I having vision as the angel speaks to me, "Come up hither", while I stand somewhere bottom from the above, which angel asks me, then, I fly up toward to angel in the vision. Rev. 4:2 is not rapture. John said, "I was in the spirit". My understanding what John talked about, he speaks of his vision as he received revelation by the angel also Jesus too while he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Rev. 4:2 refers to Rev. 1:10 - "I was in the Spirit". It does not mean that John was caught up is rapture. John speaks of received revelation by vision as he received message from Jesus Christ on that day in year around 95 A.D. while he was at Patmos Island.

    Revelation means supernatural communication between God and man, same as Paul tells us, he received revelation from Jesus Christ - Galatians 1:12. Paul speaks of his experince communicate with Jesus Christ by vision? Remember Paul was an apostle of Christ. Today, there is no more apostle, all 66 books in the Bible are already written as canonized together after the last person written - John, the Beloved.

    The book of Revelation shows lot of visions from John, as he received messages from Jesus Christ and angel too.

    So, Rev. 4:1-2 tell us, in John's experince as he received revelation in his vision, that he was called up by the angel. So, in John's spirit(vision) went up to meet angel at the door of heaven. And the angel told him, to show him the future things.

    "come up hither" is not always mean rapture. Rev. 4:1 speaks toward John one person only, NOT to the Churches.

    'Come hither' find three times in the book of Revelation, which these were speak toward John - Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9. Rev. 17:1 tells us, that the angel asked John, to come here, and to show him of Babylon. Rev. 21:9 tells us, the angel asked John, to come here, and to show him of New Jerusalem.

    Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9 all of these have do nothing with rapture. These are spoken of John was called to come, for the purpose of revealtion to see things in his visions.

    You are partially correct that you saying 'as' means same or alike.

    In another word, John tells us of Rev. 1:10; & 4:1 he said, he heard the sound COMPARE like trumpet.

    Understand, many things in the book of Revelation are figuratives and symbols. We have to be careful, what we read verses in the book of Revelation, these are not always literal, depend on what the grammatics are talking about.

    The context of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 talking about the activities in the heaven in John's vision. Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are now happening already since John saw them in the visions. Christ's throne already there before the creation. His throne is eternality. Rainbow round around the throne is already there now. The four beasts are already there round around the throne of God. The four beasts already there long time before Christ came to earth for calvary. The twenty-four elders sit on twenty-four thrones round around Chrost's throne are already there right now. I believe these are angels.

    The four beasts, twenty-four elders are now worshipping Christ in the heaven for many centuries, to now and continue future and for ever and ever. Even all angels in the heaven are worshipping Christ in the heaven already for many centuries to now, and continue future and for ever and ever. Not only four beasts, twenty-four elders, angels, ALSO, many saints in the heaven, who already died in the past, are worshipping Christ sit on the throne right now.

    Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are already happening long time ago before John saw in his vision, these are now happening today, and will conitnue in the future.

    Dr. Griffin and pretribbers, Revelation chapter 2 and 3 do not giving the hints of what year which one church age we are in right now. C.I. Scofield made his idea, he taught on them, these are the represent of the Church history, for example:

    Church of Ephesus: 30 A.D. - 100 A.D.
    Church of Smyrna: 100 A.D. - 325 A.D.
    Church of Pergamos: 325 A.D. - 700 A.D.?
    Church of Thyatira: 700 A.D. - 1000 A.D.
    Church of Sardis: 1000 A.D. - 1500 A.D.
    Church of Philadelphia: 1500 A.D. - 1900 A.D.
    Church of Laodicea: 1900 A.D. - 2100 A.D.?

    How can they determine to saying what the year of thiese church age, which we are right now. There is no hint of what year of these church ages, and which one we are right now.

    Revelation chapter two and three talk about every individuals of the churches, on their characters, spiritual, strengths, weakeness, and works too. What kind type of seven churches, apply our spiritual are. These seven churches were literal during John's time. These seven churches were located in Asia(now Turkey). Christ knows the seven churches' spiritual, how their strengths, weakeness, what's their result were, these are apply to our spirituals throughout all centuries. Also, Revelation chapter two and three speak of Jesus Christ gave his instructions, warnings, and blessings to them, same as apply to us, that we listen Christ's instruction, and warnings throughout all centuries.

    Understand?

    Then, after John listened Christ's instruction of the seven churches in his vision. He received another vision of heaven - Revelation chapter 4 and 5. Revelation chapter 4 and 5 both are not talking about rapture and the judgment seat of Christ. These are talking about the activites in the heaven. These are happening right now.

    I hope that you understand what Revelation chapter 2, 3, 4, and 5 talking about.

    And also, 'resurrection' is not mentioned in Rev. 4:1,2. Resurrection is not appear till Revelation chapter 20, proves that the Church is now in the tribulations, many were beheaded, even many will be beheade in the future, many will refuse worship the Antichrist.

    So, no way that you can prove that we will be rapture before tribulation, because 'resurrection' is not appear anywhere in Rev. 4:1,2.

    Rapture CANNOT occur yet TILL resurrection must occur FIRST.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    jshurley04,

    Please give the example, why do you saying that my hermeneutic is BACKWARD?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  18. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    I have a few questions. Where did the apostle John die, and when will this occur in relation to the "rapture":

    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
     
  19. David Hill

    David Hill New Member

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    "So when will the rapture occur? Please use scripture only to prove your position, not extra Biblical sources or opinions."

    &lt;&gt;&lt;---------------------------------------------------------------

    Luk 12:36 And you yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he comes and knocks, they may open unto him immediately."

    Pretrib Wedding and Post Trib Reception - Irrefutable.
     
  20. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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