Pre-Trib - not strongly supported Biblically

DeafPosttrib: "Most pretribbers do not agree with your intepret
on Matt 24:31 is rapture."

Fortunately, that should not impeed our discussion.
Not one in a hundered Christians take the position of a-millinnial.
Not one in a hundered a-mills belive as you do,
in a physical return of Jesus at the end of the world.

So there can't be more than about 800 people in the US
think like you do. So cut the compares, you loose when
you bring them up.

 

DeafPosttrib,

I am not many, or most, but I am a pre-tribber. Ed knows his stuff as he sees it, just as I know mine by how I see it. Ed and I may not have the finer points in sync, but we are still there standing together.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Ed,

I gotta tell you, brother, I LOVE your sense of humor. It is almost as twisted as mine...

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Firedome,

Just try to look over me, as I have a tendency to ramble at times.

As far as the call of the Rapture not being heard: all I can tell you is what it says. My personal feeling is that the trumpet and the shout will be heard by all of the true Christians, both alive and dead. Only the unsaved will not hear.

I guess I missed your point on John 11. Could you explain that one to me?

The remarks of the angels in Acts 1:9 make perfect sense if you look at Revelation 19:11-14. Who is the army riding behind Christ? When does this happen? Yes, it is in judgement, but not until the end of the Tribulation.

You spoke of destruction and judgement as the setting for 1 Thessalonians 5. Yes, I can see that. When the church is taken away, the beginning of the Tribulation is at hand.

On 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, you forget the beauty of Scripture. Outside of the Gospels, the NT is made up of personal letters and correspondance to churches. The entire sum of it was not addressed to us in this day and time, but God, in His infinite wisdom, used the pen of the writers to record the spiritual truths that we have today. All of Scripture was written in times past, addressed to times past, but the truths contained therein are as timeless today as the day they were written.

Besides, I never claimed to be the final authority. God is. We might all be wrong on this issue. Or we might not. I guess we'll all find out in the by-and-by.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Luther was in the minority also.

How do you think I feel? There are 100 times more A-Mills than full preterist.

 

And there are still far more Catholics than Lutherans and Baptists put together. So if we do our theology by the numbers, we'd all better go out and buy some rosary beads.

Tim

 

Luther was in the minority also.

How do you think I feel? There are 100 times more A-Mills than full preterist. </font>[/QUOTE]Have you found that other person that
believes just like you

 

Ed,

I think Grasshopper is trying to recruit me to his full-pret. camp so he can have some company.

GH,

Sorry, but I just can't go that far.

In Christ,

Tim

 

Really? What does this verse mean?

Matt 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.

This verse indicates that sin will be present in "the age to come", because this sin will not be forgiven.

We live in what the NT writers called the "age to come".

Pre-AD70(this age) Post AD70(the age to come) </font>[/QUOTE]I believe we are in the dispensation of "this age", the age of grace, the the Church age...
The "age to come" is eternity, where believers spend a blissful existance with Christ, forever discovering and pleasuring in the riches of His glory, while returning eternal praise to Him who saved us unto Himself. Even more joyous, we shall be in total and complete fellowship with our Redeemer and LORD! But for those who do not receive, the "age to come" will be eternal separation from the love of God, an eternity of torment, for there is NO peace of any degree outside of the presence and sustanence of God. They will physically burn in an unmeasurably hot fire of torment, but I believe also their rejection and unbelief will burn through their conscience souls as well, forever and ever. And there will be no more sin forever and ever either!

Now, as for Matthew 12:32:
First of all, the verse uses the word "world" instead of "age" in the King James text, but both are correct, since "age" entails the whole realm. But "world" brings it down-to-earth, if you will, and makes it clear that Jesus was first talking present and then future (still to come) in verse 32.

And once again, we must take this verse into its correct context, for this verse is refering to the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit", as shown in the complete passage, beginning at verse 22.

After casting out a devil, thereby healing a blind and dumb person (v. 22), the Pharisees were saying Jesus cast out devils by Beelzabub, the prince of devils (v. 24). For this blasphemous statement, they could still be forgiven (v. 31). But Jesus knew their thoughts (v. 25). He explained that Satan does not cast out himself, lest his kingdom be divided against itself (vv. 25-26). Therefore, it made no sense that Jesus was casting out devils by the power of Beelzabub (v. 27). But if Jesus cast out devils by the Holy Spirit, then the kingdom of God has arrived (vv. 28-29).

Jesus then summed it up that the Pharisees (and any others), who were not with Him, were against Him. Their words of blasphemy against Christ were forgivable in this present world (and age, or dispensation of grace - while there is still time for salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2)). But it was more than just name-calling and unbelief in a man (the Pharisees did not consider Jesus to be divine, obviously!). It was the unbelief they had in the power behind Jesus - the working of the Holy Spirit. To reject the evidence and work of the Holy Spirit is to reject the final witness God has to a person's conscience. The Spirit works in many ways and through many means (including human), but once that work is openly rejected (blasphemed, spoken against - the Pharisees were teachers and leaders and by their words, they were leading souls astray from the Spirit's witness), then there is total damnation - no forgiveness available in this (present) world and New Testament age, no mercy and grace left for eternity (the new world and the age to come). Therefore, to say "neither in this world, neither in the world to come" is to settle eternal damnation that begins here and now (at the point of the blasphemy) and lasts forever!

This compares well to the false teachers and heretics the Christian is warned to guard against throughout the New Testament. Their judgement is on the harshest of scales, for not only do they themselves reject the Holy Spirit, but they lead others astray as well (Mark 12:38-40; Hebrews 2:3-4; 10:26-31; 12:25; 2 Peter 2:9-22; James 3:1).

[ February 15, 2004, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: biblemark ]

 

Brother Trotter,

Let me begin by saying that your rambling is quite welcomed; I do not consider your words as rambling but rather as reasoning.

As for my comments on John 11, it is my understanding of the pre-trib point of view that the dead in Christ will rise at the secret rapture of the church and Christ will then return on the last day to raise the un-Godly for judgment. If this is true, how is it that Martha stated that Lazarus will not be raised until the last day? Is she saying that Lazarus was un-Godly? I do not believe so. I believe it is quite clear in the Holy Scriptures that every reference of the resurrection is on the last day. Is this the resurrection of the dead in Christ or those who die/died in their sins? I believe that it is both will be raised.

As far as 2 Thessalonians, I do see the beauty of the scripture. The epistle, as you have clearly stated was written to the people at that time and is pertinent to us now just as it was then. My question is how does this point to the Holy Spirit being removed from the Earth? It is clearly dealing with something or someone of that day. Paul was moved by God to write it to give the Thessalonians comfort. What is the comfort that is being given? Is it the promise of a rapture? Or is it a promise of all those in Christ being changed from corruption into incorruptible? I believe there are clear teachings from God's Holy Word in support of the latter. When I sat on my Grandfather's knee he wouldn't speak of a rapture. He would speak of the day when he wouldn't have to worry about it taking 10 minutes to get out of bed, or the joints of his body being consumed with arthritic pain. He spoke of the promise when he would be able to walk, talk and sing with no effort. He would say that Methuselah's lifespan would look like a toddler. My thoughts of these very same things make me hope in that resurrection as I progress further down the road of life. I do not seek signs or codes or anything of that nature from His Word. What I seek is to see my blessed Savior part the Eastern sky in glory, not in the promise of being caught up in the air, but caught up to Him and changed into the likeness of Him. Nor do I dwell on the crowns that I will receive, but that which I do dwell is a promise that He will be glorified through me.


Let me say that I enjoy having dialogue with you due to the fact it seems that you have a much more level head than others on this board. I do not believe that satire or cynicism is an edifying of the saints that is spoken of in God's Word. I say that we all rejoice each to his own in the fact that God has sought to be merciful and save a sinner like me/you/we/us/them. Yes you are correct in saying that we/me/you/they are not the final authority on the things pertaining to God, He is, but it should not stop dialogue in these matters.

Maranatha,
Rodney

 

firedome,

Well said.

If we say that the "blessed hope" of each believer is to be raptured before he must face death--then for the majority of believers throughout history, it was a false hope, and may be so for those living today. Our blessed hope is greater than that--and it focuses on the Lord's return on the "last day" to raise the dead, show mercy on His own people, and pronounce judgment upon all others.

In Christ,

Tim

 

Firedome, a.k.a. Rodney,

Thank you for the complement, although I doubt that some would agree with you all the time .

On the John 11 subject...yes, the dead in Christ, as well as they which are alive and remain will be taken up to be with Jesus at the Rapture. But Christ will return at the end of the Tribulation to set up His thousand-year reign. The raising of the ungodly is not to occur until after the end of all things (Revelation 20).

Mary spoke thus about Lazarus because she didn't know any different. Jesus spoke to His disciples of what was to come, but this teaching was not given to every Tom, Dick, or Mary (yes, a very bad joke). Mary knew that Lazarus would be raised one day when all the other righteous were to be raised, but she did not know of Jesus' teaching on His return.

What comfort was being given in 2 Thessalonians 2? It was a reinforcement of Paul's earlier teaching at Thessalonica and his earlier letter. Many false teachers had came to the Thessalonians and tried to tell them that their present troubles were really the Tribulation, and that they had missed the Rapture. Paul was explaining to them that they hadn't.

How does this point to the Holy Spirit being removed? Well, He is never completely moved, period. Only the church is. When the church is taken out of this world, all the restraint that was in place for the church is removed as well. How many secular businesses are blessed for the benefit of Christians who work there? How much bloodshed does God prevent in order to protect those who are His? And what will this world be like if all the blessing of God were removed at one time?

What I seek is to see my blessed Savior part the Eastern sky in glory, not in the promise of being caught up in the air, but caught up to Him and changed into the likeness of Him. Nor do I dwell on the crowns that I will receive, but that which I do dwell is a promise that He will be glorified through me.

Amen, brother. Amen.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Brethren - Lots of fascinating material. I'm back from the conference, and had a few spare minutes, so logged on to be sure none of you had been raptured and I'd missed it.

Still no takers on Matt. 12:41-42,and not much on Mt. 11:20-24? They still look pretty general to me, but then I'm biased!

Speaking of "kai" and the blessed hope - Titus 2:13 is one of the great passages on the deity of our Lord Jesus. Grammar calls for "even" - "the great God, even our Saviour Jesus Christ." And the grammar of the first part of the verse is exactly the same: "that blessed hope, even the glorious appearing . . . ." - doesn't quite fit pre- or mid-trib, it would seem?

By the way - everyone else at the conference was dispensational. Minority status is nothing new - most Anabaptists through the Dark Ages found themselves "out of step." (Also out of circulation, quite often!) Best - RCB - Ro. 8:28

 

Brother Trotter,

I doubt very seriously that Martha or Mary for that matter did not know about the promise of the resurrection being on the last day. It is told in a quite beautiful way by many of His saints. (Job 14:12-15;19:25-27; Ps 16:9-0;17:15; 49:15; Isa 25:8;26:19; Eze 37:1-14; Da 12:2-3,13; Ho 13:14)

As to your idea as to what 2 Thessalonians refers to, where are the other references in God's Word on this matter of being "left behind"? I will present to you that what Paul spoke of was not a rapture, but of the resurrection. The Holy Scriptures are replete with the preaching of the resurrection. I have included some which tell me that Paul spoke this from the very beginning of his ministry until the end. Nowhere do I see him professing of a rapture.

Ac 17:18 And certain also of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, What would this babbler say? others, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached Jesus and the resurrection.

Ac 17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked; but others said, We will hear thee concerning this yet again.

Ac 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees: touching the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Ac 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets; 15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. Ro 8:21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for [our] adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

1Co 6:14 and God both raised the Lord, and will raise up as through his power.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised: 14 and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain.
15 Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised: 17 and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. 20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why do we also stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by that glorifying in you, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what doth it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die.

2Co 4:14 knowing that he that raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also with Jesus, and shall present us with you.

*2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

Php 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death; 11 if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead. Php 3:21 who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, [that it may be] conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself.

I believe the following passages to be quite enlightening. My brother, they were not written to a group of believers but to a young and upcoming pastor. I don't know much about the men that the Apostle names in verse 17 but I see in Nelson's New Illustrated Dictionary that the teaching of Hymenaeus spread like a cancer and destroyed many a believers' faith.
2Ti 1:10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 whereunto I was appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane babblings: for they will proceed further in ungodliness, 17 and their word will eat as doth a gangrene: or whom is Hymenaeus an Philetus; 18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.


Maranatha,
Rodney

 

As an afterthought, the Lord said that He would do no secret thing without first showing it unto His prophets. (Am 3:7)

Maranatha,
Rodney

 

Firedome,

Well, obviously you are well versed in your own beliefs. So, why, pray tell, did you ask for someone to explain something to you that you already had decided had absolutely no relevance to you?

Don't get me wrong. I really did enjoy it, but I must confess that your "slamming" here is a bit harsh.

I have not criticized your beliefs, nor have I attempted to disprove them (and if I did, it would be with most of the verses that you mentioned above). I believe that you have the right to believe however you see fit. But I also expect the same consideration.

I believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only people I know who do not (outside of the BB) are Catholic or Seventh-Day Adventists (well, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons don't really count). I will have to admit that I was quite taken back by the views held by many here on the BB as regards the Rapture and the thousand-year reign of Christ. In fact, I was astounded just by the diversity of Baptists here on the Board.

I respect your views on this matter, and I ask that you respect mine. If I am wrong, so be it. And if you are wrong, I will still meet you in the air.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

My Brother,

I am slamming no one. All I did was provide verses that I have found for the blessed hope. In no way did I intend to insult or injure you. If I did please forgive me. Again, I presented this data only as grounds of what I have discovered not to attack. I did this in the spirit of debate not warfare.

Maranatha,
Rodney

 

Hey, no sweat. I have been attacked in similar fashion but several on this same subject, so I took the defensive. Don't worry about it.

Hey, we can agree to disagree. After all, this is not something on which salvation hinges, agreed?

In Christ,
Trotter