Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

Pretty hard to gather all the saved on a global earth,,unless one was still into a flat earth society,,,,,,,,,,,naturally He would summon us to meet in the air,or clouds or somewhere above earth's surface. That is obvious.

Cheers, still no such thing as "rapture" as defined by dispensationalists.

No secret when so many bodies are raised and living people lifted up........sigh!

Jim

 

Well Jim,
everyone apparently will know exactly what has happened when all these people disappear:
While His coming for His own is secret (like a thief in the night), the results are not.

Revelation 7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Why would they "wail" unless they knew He was coming to judge them?
How did they know?

HankD

 

I know you don't limit God OR.
I don't think I said you do.

I realize the rapture doctrine is a composite view with some presuppositions.

To be honest, I am not completely convinced of any of the variants except that we will be "caught up" to meet Him in the air and be with Him from that point on forevermore.

HankD

 

With the "falling away" going on today, there probably won't be enough raptured to be missed.

So it might be a secret after all. :laugh:

Science says a "twinkling of an eye" is 1/1100 of a second, so if everybody "twinkle" at the same time, they would miss seeing the rapture. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Can you provide a Scriptural explanation for the church meeting Jesus in the air then turning around and coming back down to the ground with him???

And don't tell me I can ask a question the scriptures can't answer, maybe you can't, but the scriptures can, providing there is one, if not, the question isn't valid according to the precepts of the scriptures.

 

1. All the saved are gathered on a global earth at the second coming of Jesus (according to the pre-mills

2. 'as defined by dispensationalists'

A dispensation Eschatology is being discussed here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=8

but nobody drops by to try to figure it out, instead they love to burn straw-men. Kinda makes me think that nobody wants to really talk eschatology from the Bible but eschatology from the favorite professors at the Bible school

3. Amen, Elder Brother, the clatter (voice as an archangel, last trumpet of the last days / Church Age, Time of the Gentiles / ) alone is enough to wake the deaf & dead. Everybody will hear the the rapture2 event which consists of a resurrection1 action followed by a rapture1 action. Darby didn't explain it very good.

I must have THE NEW SCOFIELD STUDY BIBLE, the 'secret rapture' is on page 1437

BTW, indeed 1 Thessalonians 4:13 to 5:11 is the most clearly pretribulation premillennial futuristic passages from the Bible. I find not only ONE but TWO different sets that fit the 'caught up' (Latin: Rapture) :

1. resurrection1 = a set of actions by Christ in which the saints are raised from the dead and given glorified bodies like his

2. resurrection3 = a set of actions by Christ in which the unjust (not 'in Christ') are raised from the first temporal death and damned to the second eternal death

3. rapture1 = a set of actions by Christ like a resurrection1 only to living people

4. resurrection2 = a set of events at the beginning of the Tribulation Judgement Period which consists of a resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1

5. rapture2 = a set of events at the end of the Tribulation Judgement Period which consists of a resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1

 

I don't follow the history of and the current expression of dispensation theologies and covenant theologies. I do however, notice that thou, my Brother, art creating straw-men which thou canst demolish, rather than TALKING TO THE REST OF US.

My case is unchallenged over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=8

My case rests on the 24th Chapter of Matthew (and it's parallel passages in Mark and Luke - often called the MOD = Mount Olivet Discourse) among other beautiful scripturs. For I was told on-line about 16 years ago that 'Jesus never said anything about a pre-tribulation rapture'. The Holy Spirit showed me one day: in Matthew Chapter 24 is the clearest of the MOD scriptures that shows both the pretribulation rapture2 and the post-tribulation resurrection2.

To bad the people choked on the milk over at

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=8

and never did get around to the sirlion steak.

// I'm sorry, I only know of one Kingdom of God //

I am sorry you have missed out on 2/3 of the blessings that God has for you

 

The setting of Matthew 24 has a Jewish nuance.

Matthew 24

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?​

The Pauline passages (1 Thess 4; 1 Corinthians 15) are given specifically to the Church. In fact Paul in the Corinthian passage calls it a "mystery".

I think we disagree in the time differential between the act of being caught up with the Lord (1 Thess 4) and the judgment of this world (Matthew 24) The two events are definitely related and often difficult to sort out one from the other.​

Jesus made a "private" departure from the earth at His assumption, only His own were there. So perhaps also then His return for His own.​

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

The Scripture makes the analogy "as a thief in the night".​

Suppose one night someone came into your home unawares to you and took your computer, TV and several other things from your household possessions.​

You would not know that someone had been there "secretly" and "snatched away" your possessions until you awakened and saw they were gone.​

The only difference is that Jesus will "snatch away" His own possessions before He executes His wrath upon this world.​

Then comes the "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"​

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

"one shall be taken" - to where?
"the other Left" - for what?

The scenario is that though Noah preached, apparently he was ignored. Noah and his family at the appropriate time quietly and privately entered the ark while the rest of the world "knew not until the flood came".

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.​

Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​

In another scenario, Lot also preached destruction from heaven but he was mocked by his in-laws. He and his family quietly and privately left Sodom.​

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​

Again in the Luke passage Jesus makes the same analogy as in the Matthew:​

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

Noteworthy is the fact that Jesus knew that it would simultaneously be night and day on earth at the fulfilling of these prophecies (some would be in bed, some out in the field) showing that His return to take out His own would be global-earthwide.​

HankD​

 

Amen, Brother HankD -- Preach it!


//The setting of Matthew 24 has a Jewish nuance.//

Look at post #49 on this page:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=5

That Jewish-ness and the discussion of the Great Tribulation Period in Matthew 24:15-30 is why I say-

The Tribulation Period
- Tribulation Judgment Period for unsaved Gentiles
- Salvation Period for National Israel
is God's plan to save Israel (Romans 11:26).

 

Or ORB and those who do not believe in pretrib rapture and millenial reign can do that to you.
The blade cuts both ways, you know.

 

I wonder will we even care?

HankD

 

Actually many would say it refers to the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD70:

Adam Clarke

Mat 24:30 -
Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

John Lightfoot

[And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isa_26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign; now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

Albert Barnes

Mat 24:30 -
The sign of the Son of man - The “evidence” that he is coming to destroy the city of Jerusalem.

John Gill

and here the glory and majesty in which he shall come: and it may be observed, that the other evangelists make no mention of the sign, only speak of the son of man, Mar_13:26 and he shall appear, not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance, on the Jewish nation which will be a full sign and proof of his being come: for the sense is, that when the above calamities shall be upon the civil state of that people, and there will be such changes in their ecclesiastical state it will be as clear a point, that Christ is come in the flesh, and that he is also come in his vengeance on that nation, for their rejection and crucifixion him, as if they had seen him appear in person in the heavens. They had been always seeking a sign, and were continually asking one of him; and now they will have a sign with a witness; as they had accordingly,


Charles Spurgeon

"Our Lord here evidently returns to often made use of its illuminated the subject of the destruction of Jerusalem, and in these words gives his apostles warning concerning the signs of the times. He had recently used the barren fig tree as an object-lesson; he now bids his disciples "learn a parable of the fig tree" and all the trees (Luke 21:31). God’s great book of nature is full of illustrations for those who have eyes to perceive them; and the Lord Jesus, the great Creator, often made use of its illuminated pages in conveying instruction to the minds of his hearers. On this occasion, he used a simple simile from the parable of the fig-tree: "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh." They could not mistake so plain a token of the near return of summer; and Jesus would have them read quite as quickly the signs that were to herald the coming judgment on Jerusalem: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." The Revised Version has the words, "Know ye that he is nigh," the Son of man, the King. His own nation rejected him when he came in mercy; so his next coming would be a time of terrible judgment and retribution to his guilty capital. Oh, that Jews and Gentiles today were wise enough to learn the lesson of that fiery trial, and to seek his face, those wrath they cannot bear!"

Context:

Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

 

Clouds in scripture are Saints.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man,

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Evidently you've never "compared" the Rapture with the Second coming???


1. the rapture
2. the second coming.

Jesus himself reaps, not Angels
1. Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Jesus reaps)

2. Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (Angels reap)



The world doesn't "witness" the Rapture, it does the second comng
1. 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

2. Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,



Rapture, Dead in Christ are reaped "FIRST", second coming, Only "LIVING TARES" are reaped "FIRST".
1. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2. Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares,



Rapture, Jesus takes saints (dead/alive) "off the earth/to heaven", Second Coming, Tares are "took off the earth", "Wheat" remain for the MK.
1. Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, (heaven) there ye may be also.
Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:


2. Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.




Dead come out the grave in the Rapture, no dead comes out of the grave second coming.
1. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2. Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Israel, as the "MOTHER" (woman) who brought forth the "MAN CHILD" can't attend her "SON'S" marriages supper as his "BRIDE", a "man can't have his "FATHER'S WIFE".

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Israel, former wife of God, must become "Dead to the law" (Born again/New creature) before they can be "Married to Jesus".

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.



This "BREACH" between God and Israel is "HEALED" during the Trib, while the son's marriage supper is taking place in heaven.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

The "CANA" MARRIAGE" is when the "TWO STICKS" (Joseph/Ephriam =Church) and "JUDAH" (Israel) become "ONE STICK".

Ho 6:2 After two days (5th, 6th) will he revive us: (Israel) in the third day (7th/MK) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: (Israel)

Joh 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

These two stick (church/Israel) have separate paths until the MK.

You can't read the bible like any other "book", you have to search out "EVERY WORD", and I do mean "EVERY WORD".

 

The two sticks are the House of Israel and the House of Judah. 10 northern tribes and 2 southern tribes.

 

Joseph's (prefigure of Jesus) Son "Ephriam" was to be the "father of a multitude of nations", (Gentiles) some of the northen tribes returned with "judah" and resettled in their old home land Samaria, they became known as the "Samaritans".

Ge 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

You can read the rest of the story here.

http://www.daysofgod.com/Page5.htm


Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well,



The "Woman" at the well prefigures/foreshadows the "Gentiles Church" (Bride of christ) and the "Two days" (day=1000 years) Jesus spend with them before returning to the "JEWS" to heal the "NOBLEMAN'S" (God) Son. (Israel/Jews)

Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Joh 4:43 Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Joh 4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.

47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.

Most of what Jesus said/done, points to prophecy.