Pre- Tribulation or Post-Tribulation???

I never stated Enoch did or didn't die. I was indirectly quoting Genesis 5:24.

Genesis 5:24 KJVR
[24] And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

So if you're arguing something, I don't see your point.

 

Don't know where you're getting the basis for your statements, maybe you're confusing me with someone else, but...

I don't "give up" any truth, Bob.

Pre-Millennial Post-Tribulation View = Rapture at the end of the Tribulation, Christ to rule on earth physically for 1000 years.

 

Couple of questions. What purpose of God's does it serve for Christians to go through the tribulation and can you show that with Scripture?

Also you are leaving out half of the kingdom. Christ will not only rule physically on the earth during that 1,000-year period, but He will also rule from the heavens, where Satan and his angels are currently ruling from.

 

[Rev.14:]14-16 BIBLICAL TIMING OF THE RAPTURE
Christ is shown with a sharp sickle reaping the "harvest of the earth"
17-20 Then an angel with another sickle is shown gathering the "clusters of the vine" which is thrown into the "winepress of the wrath of God". This is all obviously the fulfillment of Matthew 25:31-34 where Jesus said He would return with all His holy angels, and gather and separate the nations— "sheep" and "goats"— one group welcomed to His Kingdom, the other rejected. And in Matthew 13, the parable of the wheat and tares, He describes the same thing, saying that He and the angels would reap the earth.
THIS IS THE RAPTURE— the first mention of such an event in the prophecy. And Paul had said it would occur at "the last trump" (1 Cor.15:52). The last or 7th trumpet began in ch. 11:15, and includes all events up until now (except of course, for the historical portions of ch. 12&13). So we see now, the rapture occurs before the final bowl judgments; it's not quite "post-tribulational", but [SIZE=-1]AFTER[/SIZE] the 5th seal ("tribulation") and trumpets— also not "mid-tribulational" or "pre-wrath". It is MID-wrath (God's "wrath" beginning with themainly humanly carried out trumpets, and being completed (Rev.15:1) in the entirely divinely carried out bowls.) This is the most clear, plain timing of the Rapture. Ch.11:18 also pictures the resurrection of the saints (which occurs at the same time as the rapture) as being at this time.

The reason why the rapture is now and not later, is because the tribulation and trumpets were humanly (and perhaps somewhat naturally) carried out afflictions that partly fulfil the wrath of God. God allows His people to be on earth, not comfortable (remember, He never promised that), but still protected. But now, we are getting ready to see the last 7 plagues, or "bowl judgments" (KJV: "vials"), which are divinely carried out, and from which no protection will be possible. So for this God will completely remove all His people from the earth, and they will now be with Him. From now on, no more groups of faithful are seen on the earth, and no more repentance is witnessed. All who will ever be redeemed in this dispensation are now redeemed. (Jer. 8:20)

 

I noticed this verse while reading today and wondered how it played into this discussion.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Notice Jesus says the days will be "shortened" not missing or avoided but only shortened. Does this mean we go through a short part of the trib?

 

The "elect" are Jews. The Church is gone. Everywhere "elect" is mentioned in the Bible, it is referring to believing Jews. Remember, not all Israel is "Israel" (the elect). This is talking about those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

 

If you want to see the rapture in Revelation it is seen in chapters 1 and then again in chapter 4. Two different pictures of the same event.

The elect in the tribulation is Israel, not Christians.

Christians will not go through the tribulation. It serves no purpose, and it can not be shown in Scripture except pre-mill, pre-trib.

The Bible leaves nothing to guesswork. It interprets Itself. When leaving the Bible to be the Bible we see that the pre-mill, pre-trib rapture is the only one that fits.

 

I agree, there is certianly no guesswork to the rapture (a word which is not in the bible).

[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Now that's as plain as it get's... :thumbs:

 

My point is that in the pre-trib and mid-trib views the one thing they DO have right is the John 14 promise of Christ being fulfilled as He takes us UP into the air to the home prepared for US there where Christ went.

"I GO that I may prepare a place for you". John 14.

They get this part right. Christ GOES and there in His Father's house WHERE there are many dwelling places He prepares "A place for us" -- THEN He comes here to RECEIVE US up to where He is that WHERE He is we may be also.

When you believed in the pre-trib rapture you also had this view of John 14 and how it related to 1Thess4.

My point is that while your pre-trib view (timing) was wrong your harmony between the John 14 promise and the 1Thess event - was correct.

No sense in throwing out the Baby with the bathwater.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Neither, but thanks for the pretrib, premil chart. I hadn't seen one of those in years.

Questions for my premil friends... Just wondering, when Jesus (and others) said He was coming soon, what did He mean? Also, what did Jesus mean when he said "this same generation shall not pass away"?

 

Obviously not what "you" want them to have meant.

 

Pan-Tribulationist.

It is all gonna pan out in the end.

 

The Rapture


1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Christians call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”). John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Christians use to support the rapture experience. The question Rapturism has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Protestants generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.

There are three ways that Christians interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.

(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.
(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Scripture2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:
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(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.
(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.
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2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!

 

I think it means the generation living at the time of the events foretold in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

 

If Enoch's being taken out was to escape the flood, thus a type of a pre-tribulation rapture, then how does one explain that fact that Noah was not taken out and did not escape the flood? He and his family were right in the middle of it.

If the flood is a type of the tribulation, then Noah went through it, but was preserved and protected in the midst of it, and so will be Gentile Christians.

You can find types for whatever you believe.

 

Not sure who got the best end of that deal, cooped up a year in the Ark had to be tribulation in and of itself.

 

The Baptist Board often has threads on this topic which I personally find incomprehensible, as it appears to be tied up with the Book of the Apocalypse.

 

Noah is a type of Israel. There will be a remnant of Israel that is protected by God and will come through the tribulation.

All Christians will be taken out...faithful and unfaithful alike.

 

I don't see where you get the rapture as a "coming". Meeting the Lord in the air is not a physical reappearance here on Earth.

 

Spurgeon is not premill??

(I did not know that)

Matt 17 - the transfiguration shows Christ in his glory that he will return with at the 2nd coming.

John said "we KNOW it is the last days because the antichrists have already come" -- The NT text never opens the door to a gospel that says "His coming is a long way off". Certainly not a 1000 years away.