Pre-tribulation rapture

1. I read thru the site according to your order!
The context and contents of the article are correct, but he misuses some terms there.
He claims that there is no salvation outside the true church, then he says it is Catholic church. I wouldn't call it Catholic, because it sounds like secular church and truly has been used by the pagan churches persecuting the true believers. Moreover we can find it nowhere in the Bible. There is Salvation outside the church. Robber at the Cross was saved without church, and we can say that he was added to the True church. Salvation is not the matter of belong to any church, but the matter of Faith in Jesus Christ. If you deny this, you are wrong in Soteriology. RCC killed many on this pretext. Calvin claimed there is no salvation outside the holy Catholic church. There is no word like that in the Bible.

2. He talked about the Nicean Creeds etc. 30% of the total sentences in the Nicean Creeds may be correct, but the rest of it is full of half truth or deficiencies and errors. Nobody in the Bible recited such Creeds. Our church never recite Nicean or any Apostlic Creeds, which I believe is very much correct. I don't want to hijack this thread for the debate on the Creeds. But I must tell you the Creeds starts with the errors.

3. Author has not completely repudiated the Catholicism and therefore use or emphasize the words like Apostlic church etc. Could you find such word in the Bible? Church belongs to Christ, neither to Apostles, nor to the priests or Bishops.

4. I would call the True church as Heavenly Church or Heavenly Universal Church which we can find the background in Ephesians 1, 2, 5.

Now if we look at your statement, you say that the Manchild was born and caught up to God in Re 12:5. Are you saying that the church is taken up together with Jesus Christ 2000 years ago? Your interpretation is even worse than all the other exergeses on it. Re 12 is talking about the Birth of Jesus and His ascension. How could you replace the Man-child with the Church?
Then how could the Woman have the believers faithful unto death in Re 12:11 after the Rapture of the church?

Your interpretation is chaos. I know that you are in chaos because I know the overview of the Revelation.

I asked you many questions on this issue.
You could never answer me about how Jews start to accept the Lord and preach the Gospel to the gentiles.
Bible says they do not repent their idolatry and other sins ( Re 9:20-, 16:11) You are proving the Revelation prophesy is wrong ! saying millions, millions of New believers are saved by their Repentance!

 

You are absolutely in the quagmire of human theories. Now I can understand what is the origin of many problems of you theory.
All the churches and the churchmen who claimed their church as " Catholic" used to persecute the True Christians. RCC claimed there is no salvation outside the Holy Catholic Church, Bible shows the Robber didn't belong to any church but was saved. Church is not the pre-requisite for the salvation, but the result of the saved people as they gather together. Nobody in the Bible claimed the Catholic church. If the Bible doesn't say about it, where is it from ? It is from Pagan and from Satan !
As I mentioned, if you want to term the Invisible, Universal church of the Truly Born again people, you better call it " Heavenly Universal Church" which may be found from " epi-urano" in Ephesians 1. You are drunken with the wine of pagan leaven.

As for Re 12, you are confused and didn't go through your own claim very much. Study your own claim deeper, you will find the contradiction quickly.
You are saying Woman is the mixture of Israel and Church, then after the Rapture of the Church along with Jesus ( 12:5) then Israel start to confess their faith:
Re 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. ( Does Israel move out of Land of Israel? Read Zech 12)

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What is the meaning of Remnant in English?
Didn't they exist before?, then were they newly produced? or they were the offspring before the event and left behind a certain event? How could they suddenly believe without the preachers?

Do you believe that the Bible is not enough to learn about the Eschatology and all other Truth? Why do you continue to deviate from the Truth and bring other human sources? I already told you that we can discuss this issue clearly as long as you don't bring any other sources than the Bible Scripture. Interpret each verse of Re 12:1-17, then let's compare between yours and mine. We can do it for Re 10, 11 also. You have no idea about what is the overview of Revelation, and its interpretations, but you just repeat what the other believers claimed before.

 

The reason the Pre-trib Rapture (PTR) can not be true is clear.

#1. It is supposed to be in 1Thess 4 where the saints the "Dead in Christ RISE FIRST" and Rev 20 clearly shows that this happens at the "FIRST resurrection" which is AFTER the Rev 19 event of the appearing of Christ. John points us to the PROMISE of Christ's coming for His saints in John 14's famous promise and then SHOWS this happening in John 19 and 20 spending 4 chapters doing nothing but expanding on that event and the Millennium that follows.

that makes the PTR doctrine impossible.

#2. Matt 24 shows CLEARLY that the saints are not gathered to be with Christ until AFTER the "Great tribulation".

There is just no way to get around these two key facts that make the PTR impossible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Would you please point out to me any specific expression which may have hurt you? In my view, the problem started from your arrogance, and you were very much sure about PTR, but I pointed out your problem and misunderstanding from the beginning. You were confused between the Wrath of God and the Persecution by the Enemies as many believers are.
You don't know much about the Bible related to this issue, especially about Revelation, but you claimed it so strongly from the beginning.
Which sentences was I wrong in? In my view your arrogance without knowledge contributed your hurt if any.

 

Keep on reading!

2 Thess 2:6-7
6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed

People at Thessalonians knew what was restraining him, and whoever that restrainer was, he was present in Paul's day.

But this is really another topic. Lets stick to PTR.

 

But brother Eliyahu, you see it as arrogance, i see it as confidence in what he believes besides the point if he is right or wrong.

If you feel strongly he is wrong then the only way to convince him or others is taught to us by God's word. Calling him arrogant is not representing meekness, but rather comes accross as though you are trying to personally cut him down that his dcotrine might appear less worthy.

I say do as the word tells us in 2 Tim 2:24-25 and let the doctrine stand or fall on it's own merits. Just my two cents, i hope I have not offended you by chiming in.

We are brothers in Christ and love should trump any quarrels we should have over doctrines. Build each other up even when you are attempting to tear down the "positional view". In the very end the truth will stand perfect as truth and the only thing we will have is what love we have built between each other.......forever and ever!


God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Isaiah 13
1 An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:
.
.
6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
.
.
9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.



For Babylon, the "day of the LORD" is past. The stars, sun, and moon refer to the destruction of a nation.

PTR guru John Walvoord said this about the "day of the LORD"

Not only I disagree with your interpretation, so do your own people!

 

You are correct on my tatics, I won't argue that.

Ahhhhh, you see. I know you have a time frame in mind because all PTR people do. Usually it is within the next 50 years.

Lucky number 7 again. PTR thinking is 6 thousand years plus the millennial reign of 1000 will give us a perfect 7000 years. And we know God is into perfection.

Lets see...... 6013 minus 25 will give us 5988........6000 minus 5988 will give us 12 more years. 2007 plus 12 will give us 2019. Okay so I was off a year. I was thinking 2018.

Okay.....these two statements are evidence of PTR people reading scripture through the eyes of the news papers. Personally, I like Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Funny, how you say 'near', as if it meant 'near'. When Jesus said 'near' to those in His day, to PTR people, near doesn't mean near
Revelatrion 1:3
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

 

Actually, ammended for errors we see:

The reason the Pre-trib Rapture (PTR) is true is clear.

#1. In 1Thess 4 where the saints the "Dead
in Christ RISE FIRST" and Rev 20 clearly shows
(v.4 that this happens as part of the
"FIRST resurrection" (this comes in the Bible right
AFTER the Rev 19 event of the appearing of Christ
- ain't that profound, 20 is AFTER 19)
John points us to the PROMISE of Christ's coming for His saints in John 14's famous promise to the Saints and then SHOWS this happening in Revelation. J

that makes the PTR doctrine possible.

#2. Matt 24:3 and 24:31 shows CLEARLY that
the saints are gathered to be with Christ Before
the "Great tribulation". The same 'gathering' and
departure from Earth at the end of The Gentile
Age (Times) is mentioned in the first part of 2 Thess 2.

There is just no way to get around these
two key facts that make the PTR possible - and
Biblical. These truths expanded will be noted soon,
as well as other proofs.

in Christ & Maranatha
--Ed Edwards

 

Eliyahu: //You were confused between the Wrath of God
and the Persecution by the Enemies as many believers are.//

Here is a few notes I made on that subject in the early 1990s:
-----------------------------------------
John 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:

---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------

Things with different who, what, where, when, how
ARE DIFFERENT.

 

peterotto:
//Personally, I like Scripture to interpret Scripture.//

Amen, Brother Peterotto -- Preach it! :thumbs:

I'm a retired Software Engineer.

Here is a pretribulatin rapture interpretation
of Matthew 24 using the template of Matthew 24:3

------------------------------------
Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.). It is also mentioned in
2 Thess 2.

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

Steaver: //We are brothers in Christ and love should trump any quarrels
we should have over doctrines. Build each other up even when you
are attempting to tear down the "positional view". In the very end
the truth will stand perfect as truth and the only thing we will have
is what love we have built between each other.......forever and ever!//

Amen, Brother Steaver -- Preach it! :thumbs:

I like this song I heard at a life-time (we were 63)
acquaintence's funeral:

WE SHALL BEHOLD HIM by Dottie Rambo

2. The angel shall sound
the shout of His coming;
The sleeping shall rise
from their slumbering place
And those who remain shall be
changed in a moment
And we shall behold
Him then face to face

1 John 3:2 (KJV1611 Edition):
Beloued, now are we the sonnes of God,
and it doeth not yet appeare,
what wee shall be: but wee know,
that when he shall appeare,
we shall bee like him:
for we shall see him as he is.

 

So this is how you reply?
I never said I know the date or a time frame for Christ's second coming, read the post again.
But I guess I can expect this from those who can't defend their own theology.

Now it is offical. You believe Christ will return before 2019.
My next question is, what will happen to your theology if He doesn't????????
My guess, the PSTers would re-interpret scripture as it pertains to prophecy of course.

BGTF could you please tell me the names of those who you follow on PST?
(your comment on oil scares me. I hope you didn't get that from Hal Lindsey )
Thanks.

P.S. I have read quite a few books on "End time prophecies" . The one who influenced me the most is Gary DeMar. American Vision Link Here

 

Keep on reading

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Everytime "This generation" is used in the new testament always means to those in Jesus day. I'm using Scripture to interpret Scripture to come up with that conclusion. PSTers have to re-interpret scripture to get their theology. Instead of "this generation" they would substitute "that generation" or "that age" depending which teacher they follow. Neither of them are backed by Scripture interpreting Scripture.


Isaiah 19
1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Here we have in the Old Testament, the LORD said He is coming to Egypt.
EE. When did that happen?


2 Samuel 22
10He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. 11And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.


Another O.T. example of the Lord saying He came down and was seen!
EE. When did that happen?



Most PSTers can't answer that. It is like when Jesus asked the Pharisees about John's baptism. In one hand if they say God did come down, then the same can be said about Jesus coming down in 70A.D. On the other hand, if PSTers deny that God actually came down then they deny what the Bible says.

 

2Sa 22:1¶And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:


What was seen! Was God's great power in the forces of nature! Read the whole song.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Egyptian historians say it happened around 671 B.C.

I'm not sure your points in these references.

No one has ever "seen" the LORD. What has been seen is His great wonders in the sky and on the earth.

God Bless! :thumbs: