Pre-tribulation rapture

You cannot modify the Bible so that it may say the millions of Believers never lived during the Tribulation.

Ek means that they were in the GT and came out of GT. They suffered GT and overcame it !

Don't change the Bible to suit your theory! The Bible Truth must be convicting you in your heart ! Be honest as Bereans ( Ac 17:11)

 

Eliyahu: //You cannot modify the Bible so that it
may say the millions of Believers never lived
during the Tribulation.//

1. I didn't modify any Bible.

2. Millions of Believers will live during
the Tribulation. Most of them will
live through the Tribulation Period.
They will be Jewish/Israeli chosen elect saints
saved by the very hand of God from the
killing fields of the AC (Antichrist).
They are eternally saved by believing that
Messiah Jesus rose from the dead.
(ain't that the same as us, eh?)

3. Talking to some of my Messanic Jewish
friends, I find they think that the Gentiles
of the Church Age who are saved will
be raptured at the end of the Church Age
(start of the Tribulation Period).
They will be raptured/resurrected when
the last Gentile who will be saved is saved
(this is justifiable by the Bible).

Note in Chapter 7 of Revelaltion that the
144,000 Jewish/Israeli chosen elect saints
are also raptured. These are among the
Messianic Jews who were saved in the
Church age and are marked for special
protection on earth as a reward for faithful
service to Messiah Jesus. Maybe the
144,000 Evangelists is a correct statement
of that Millionare fellow who was not
LEFT BEHIND

 

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

[/quote]

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

These events could easily apply to the early church, persecution by the Jews, Persecution by pagan Rome, persecution by Papal Rome and to the final persecution of the last days. All would see these same events.


Then Christ points to the fact that all of this continues until the Gospel is preached to all the world AND then the end comes

The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecedented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

 

Duplicate post

 

Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.
The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".


29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.[/quote]

Christ comes "IN the clouds of the Sky" with "Great power and Great Glory". And is seen vividly just as lightning is seen vividly.

1 Thess 4
16 For the [b]Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout[/b], with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


Rev 6 (when sixth seal is broken)
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll[/b] when it is rolled up, and [b]every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 Then the kings of the earth[/b] and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free[/b] man hid themselves in the cave[/b]s and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, ""Fall on us and hide us[/b] from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;[/b]
17 for the great day of their wrath[/b] has come, and who is able to stand?''

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

 

I checked again -- it is not there.

 

post 103 & 104 are just alike, Bro. Ryan.

 

I checked it in all my 9 Bibles on the shelves by my
compuater. It is in every one of them.

Jesus is going to come get me (John 14:3) and
the rest of the Church Age saved chosen elect saints
BEFORE the Tribulation Period.

 

Very much genius to add " BEFORE the Tribulation Period"

Don't manufacture the Bible in your factory!

 

Thanks. Sometimes the "submit post" function delays and when I go to "Advanced" and then "a dupe" can sometimes result.

 

Thanks for posting the Scriptures.
I see I, the pretribulation rapturist
read the same Scriptures that the
post-tribulation rapture onlyist.
--------------------------------


\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
---/mod/ and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory
to defeat the antichrist and set up the
millinnial kingdom):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

Yes, and the slow speed tonight makes it even worse.
I just timed out, but the post was made already.
It took awile to load the page to see it had been posted.

Again - thanks for the Nifty Bible Passages -- they
are quite colorful. :applause:

 

A few points of order

1. John 14 says nothing about "I will come again BEFORE the tribulation".

2. John 14 DEFINES the focus event for the entire NT church. Christ gives this one and only promise and to this ALL NT writers point!

The failure of the pre-trib rapture doctrine is that "it imagines" that Christ has more than one coming and seeks to dilute this John 14 promise by "imagining" that the SAME promise expanded and seen in Matt 24 is "some other coming of Christ" and NOT the very promise seen in John 14.

By contrast the post-trib rapture view argues that John 14 IS THE ONE AND ONLY focus event (Keep your hope FIXED COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ) in ALL NT accounts!

It is THE consistent view and teaching on the promise of John 14 which is why I keep pointing out that the FIRST RESURRECTION of REv 20 is in fact where we see that the "DEAD in Christ RISE FIRST" in 1Thess 4 and is in fact THE PROMISED event in John 14!!

So John 14 is the source of the undoing of the pre-trib doctrine not a pillar for it.

Having said that - the key faILING for many-post trib teachers is that they want to DENY the John 14 promise that when Christ comes again - he takes the saints to heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

No it is the same event -- one where as we see in John 14 "I will come again" being the very SAME one where we see in John 14 "AND receive you unto myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

We do not say of John 14 "Come again" AND "receive you" are TWO different events!

Quite simply put your method only works by doing something with the text that should not be done to John 14 OR to 2Thess 2. Hence - John 14 is the "undoing" of the pre-trib rapture idea.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It is sad that many people miss the apparent truth on this issue.

2 Thess 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God


9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other ( From All over the world- does this mean only the Jews from all over the world ? Why doesn't He mention the Rapture before this event?)

Luke 21
Are these Messianic Jews only ?11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Then were the Messianic Jews left behind the Rapture?

Is this the warning only for the Jews?

Luke 21

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Does Jesus give any hint that the persecution will take place only to the Jews?

Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together

Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

We notice the followings
1) the Saints existed before the Rise of the Beast from the Sea

2) The Beast makes the war with the Saints. If the Saints didn't exist, the Beast cannot make war with them.

3) It was given to the Beast to make the war with the Saints.
Given by whom?

4) the War only with the second class believers after the Rapture?
Where can we find such clue?


Where did they in the Re 12 get this faith from?

Re 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death


You must be honest in front of God when you interpret the Bible. Does your conscience still insist on the PTR?

What is the meaning of the Remnants here?

Re 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are they just new believers here ?
Re 13
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Re 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints

Re 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.



How could there be new believers while the people do not repent?
Re 9
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.




Re 16
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds


Who are those 2 witnesses?
How could the Beast make war with 2 witnesses? Does it make sense if any countries make war with just 2 persons?

Re 11:
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Wasn't Jesus crucified in Jerusalem? Is Jerusalem in Egypt or in Sodom?

 

You can see the Beast comes up, rise out of the Sea ( all nations around the world) commonly and makes the War with the saints and the saints are mentioned as 2 witnesses in Re 11.


Re 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Didn’t they preach the Gospel ?

13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.



11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Re 17

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is

 

You should remember that Jeremiah warned such to the false prophets who were claiming the peace on their land while actully the Judea was going to be captured by Babylon.

14
12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence. 13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. 16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

Jere 23
16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.


Even Ezekiel 13

15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; 16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

 

Amen ByGracethroughFaith - you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

And here is my blessed hope in Messiah Yeshua.
It is what I hope Jesus will do for me:

And frankly I don't care if that is cause I die and
get resurrected at the Pretribulation Resurrection
or live and get raptured at the Pretribulation Rapture.
It is a total WIN WITH JESUS -- WIN WITH YESHUA situation.

\o/ All Glory be to Hashem \o/

:godisgood:

Phi 1:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
According to my earnest expectation,
and my hope, that in nothing I shalbe ashamed:
but that with all boldnes, as alwayes, so now
also Christ shal be magnified in my body, whether
it be by life or by death.

Romans 5:1-9 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore being iustified by faith, wee haue peace with God, through our Lord Iesus Christ.
2 By whom also wee haue accesse by faith, into this grace wherein wee stand, and reioyce in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not onely so, but we glory in tribulations also, knowing that tribulation worketh patience:
4 And patience, experience: and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed, because the loue of God is shed abroad in our hearts, by the holy Ghost, which is giuen vnto vs.
6 For when wee were yet without strength, in due time, Christ died for the vngodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peraduenture for a good man, some would euen dare to dye.
8 But God commendeth his loue towards vs, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for vs.
9 Much more then being now iustified by his blood, we shalbe saued from wrath through him.

Hope of Salvation starts in tribulation (the agony), goes to hope;
and is complete at Tribulation (the wrath) just at the beginning:
the Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection