Predestination in Christianity

The two are inseparable

Unfortunately, and IMHO, the two are inseparable. One needs the other, just as the other needs the other. Sure, there are different views of the definition of both of these terms, but for me I was chosen before birth to be called to the Gospel ministry, and that meant I needed to be born again and water baptized.

That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it!

Shalom to my brothers and sisters :1_grouphug: ,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

OK, did He love before He knew?

I've been contemplating "intelligent design" lately -- you know, this creation was all thought out before it was created. Did God know us before He loved us or did He love us before He knew us? Unless you are going to aver "spontaneous creation," one came before the other.

And this is somewhat like asking the question that Luther did: "Do you suppose that He does not will what He foreknows, or that He does not foreknow what He wills? ... His will is not impeded, waht is done cannot but be done where, when, how, as far as, and by whom, He foresees and wills."

But before you "fall into that trap," Sproul tells us "It is the first assertion that has evoked furious debate: God will whatever He foreknows." Even Luther didn't like the idea of "compulsion" that the first assertion involved.

Amy, it's a little more involved than deciding who loved who first.

skypair

 

Good noncommital response! And that is all that is needed to answer "doubtful disputations," isn't it! Answer what you DO understand and save the deep questions for "investigative" discussions.

skypair

 

Yes it is, but I wanted to make it clear that God is the first cause. He knew us before we knew Him. He loved us before we loved Him. Whatever word you want to use, know/love, God did it first. I think it's important to get that right. Correct doctrine depends on getting things right.
I'm not trying to defend or disprove any particular doctrine. I'm just going by what scripture says.

 

never mind

 

Sorry. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking me.

 

Sorry, Amy. That was a double post I wanted to get rid of My bad.

I'm still finding foreknowledge before predestination just like Rom 8:29 says.

skypair

 

I believe that this whole area is not as clear cut as either side claims. The verses cited here contain 3 different Greek words.

1) 1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Lexicon Results for prognōsis (Strong's G4268)

Root Word (Etymology) from G4267

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV — foreknowledge 2

Other use.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Our word prognosis comes from this root.

Etymology:
Late Latin, from Greek prognōsis, literally, foreknowledge, from progignōskein to know before, from pro- + gignōskein to know — more at know
Date: 1655
1: the prospect of recovery as anticipated from the usual course of disease or peculiarities of the case 2 : forecast, prognostication

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2) Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Lexicon Results for prooraō (Strong's G4275)

Root Word (Etymology)
variant of G4308; from G4253 and G1492

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to foresee

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2

Other use:

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
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3) 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Lexicon Results for proginōskō (Strong's G4267)
Greek for G4267
Root Word (Etymology) from G4253 and G1097

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate

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Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 5
AV — foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1

Act 26:5 Which knew 4267 me 3165 from the beginning 509, if 1437 they would 2309 testify 3140 , that 3754 after 2596 the most straitest 196 sect 139 of our 2251 religion 2356 I lived 2198 a Pharisee 5330.

Rom 8:29 For 3754 whom 3739 he did foreknow 4267 , he 4309 0 also 2532 did predestinate 4309 [to be] conformed 4832 to the image 1504 of his 846 Son 5207, that 1519 he 846 might be 1511 the firstborn 4416 among 1722 many 4183 brethren 80.

Rom 11:2 God 2316 hath 683 0 not 3756 cast away 683 his 846 people 2992 which 3739 he foreknew 4267 . 2228 Wot ye 1492 not 3756 what 5101 the scripture 1124 saith 3004 of 1722 Elias 2243? how 5613 he maketh intercession 1793 to God 2316 against 2596 Israel 2474, saying 3004 ,

1Pe 1:20 Who verily 3303 was foreordained 4267 before 4253 the foundation 2602 of the world 2889, but 1161 was manifest 5319 in 1909 these last 2078 times 5550 for 1223 you 5209,

2Pe 3:17 Ye 5210 therefore 3767, beloved 27, seeing ye know [these things] before 4267 , beware 5442 lest 3363 ye also 1601 0, being led away 4879 with the error 4106 of the wicked 113, fall from 1601 your own 2398 stedfastness 4740.

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On the other hand prognōsis (Strong's G4268) is derived from proginōskō (Strong's G4267).

The Biblical meaning for prognōsis is foreknowledge or forethought, pre-arrangementand and for for proginōskō is:

1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate


In modern English, foresee and foreknow are synonyms meaning to see beforehand.

foresee
Date: before 12th century
: to see (as a development) beforehand

synonyms foresee, foreknow, divine, anticipate mean to know beforehand. foresee implies nothing about how the knowledge is derived and may apply to ordinary reasoning and experience <economists should have foreseen the recession>. foreknow usually implies supernatural assistance, as through revelation <if only we could foreknow our own destinies>.

My conclusion from all this is there is a fine line being drawn here between foreknowledge and predestination. I believe that both of these ideas are supported in the Bible as I hope you can see and therefore I believe that God in all his power and glory uses both or more likely a much more complicated approach.


If anyone believes that they can fully understand Go's plan I would answer:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.