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Predestination (Of the lost)

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by John Wells, Nov 25, 2001.

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  1. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    S. Baptist: I'd like for you, or anyone else, to show me a verse in the Bible that says some are "predestined" to Hell.

    How’s this for starters?

    Joshua 11:20 (ESV)
    For it was the LORD’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the LORD commanded Moses.

    1 Kings 20:42 (ESV)
    And he said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Because you have let go out of your hand the man whom I had devoted to destruction, therefore your life shall be for his life, and your people for his people.’ ”

    Proverbs 16:4 (ESV)
    The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

    Malachi 1:2-3 (ESV)
    “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”

    Romans 9:7-33 (ESV)
    and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, f“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

    As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’ ” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, , “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

    What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

    Romans 11:7-8 (ESV)
    What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

    Revelation 13:5-8 (ESV)
    And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

    [ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
    #1 John Wells, Nov 25, 2001
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Romans 8:29-30 Gods foreknowledge and predestination go hand in hand. God did not send them to hell we were all on our way there. Christ came to save all his Father gave him and that's all. He predesinated all his children to be with him in glory. They are the only ones he died for and no one else. Where is the problem? Is God unjust? His ways are higher than our ways and he does according to his will. He has power over the clay to make one vessel to honor and one vessel to dishonor.
    Jacob have I LOVED and Esau have I HATED is what God said. Why? I don't know I'm not God and neither is anyone on this board. I thank God for his love, mercy and grace which I have never deserved... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen
     
    #2 tyndale1946, Nov 25, 2001
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Boy, I'm ducking this thread for a while. Think I know a good cave in Afghanistan . . :cool: :cool: :cool:

    Hunker down, comrades and watch out for incoming! :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, Nov 26, 2001
  4. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3 New Member

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    Dr. H. A. Ironside wrote concerning predestination, "It is the Father who has predestinated us to the adoption of children. Nowhere in the Bible are people ever predestinated to go to hell, and nowhere are people ever predestinated to go to heaven. Look it up and see. We are chosen in Christ to share His glory for eternity, but predestination is always to some special place of blessing. Turn to Romans 8:29. Predestinated to what? Predestinated ‘to be conformed to the image of His Son.’ You see, predestination is not God from eternity saying ‘This man goes to Heaven and this man goes to hell.’ No, but predestination teaches me that when I have believed in Christ, when I have trusted Him as my Saviour, I may know on the authority of God that it is settled forever that some day I am to become exactly like my Saviour" (In the Heavenlies, Expository Addresses on Ephesians, pp. 34-35).
     
    #4 Psalm145 3, Nov 26, 2001
  5. ddavis

    ddavis New Member

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    I believe that God’s sovereignty never over rules man sovereignty and man’s never over rules God’s. That is why we have a “free will” we all have a choice to make, Romans 10:13 comes to mind again and again and again.
    How does that story go about the man walking up to the door and a sign above it reads “for whosoever will” and the man walks away. Then another man walks up to the same door reads the sign and walks in, then above the door on the other side a sign reads “chosen before the foundation of the world”.
    :D
     
    #5 ddavis, Nov 26, 2001
  6. S. Baptist

    S. Baptist New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
    S. Baptist: I'd like for you, or anyone else, to show me a verse in the Bible that says some are "predestined" to Hell.

    What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,

    [ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ][/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If you'll go back and read all the reasons God was against each, you'll find that each had committed an offense against God which caused God to be agaisnt them.

    Esau sold his "birthright", Israel lacked "Faith".

    Is God responsible for Esau selling his birthright, or was that a "sin" Esau committed??

    Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
    17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected:


    "when he would have inherited the blessing"

    According to the Bible, and God's ordnance, Esau was to inherit the blessing of the "firstborn", BUT lost it due to his "SIN", not predestination.

    God didn't reject Israel, Israel rejected God by their "lack of Faith".

    Take off your "rose colored glasses" and read these again to "SEE WHY" these things happen.


    Dr Bob:

    Is there room in the cave for "Two". ROFL.
     
    #6 S. Baptist, Nov 26, 2001
  7. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    S. Baptist,

    You'd better make that two separate caves. ;) :D
     
    #7 Michael Wrenn, Nov 26, 2001
  8. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    S. Baptist: Take off your "rose colored glasses" and read these again to "SEE WHY" these things happen.

    You don't need to resort to hyperbole to win friends and influence people. You did fail, however, to redress ANY of the scripture verses I quoted without opinion because I prefer to let scripture defend itself. It doesn't need my hyperbole comments! ;)
     
    #8 John Wells, Nov 26, 2001
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    When we get to HEAVEN it won't matter what we said here only what he said: "IT IS FINISHED!"... Brother Glen :D... Jesus loves, you and you and you and you and you and you.....................................
    And that my Brethren is PREDESTINATION

    [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

    [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
    #9 tyndale1946, Nov 26, 2001
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    tyndale: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jacob have I LOVED and Esau have I HATED is what God said. Why? I don't know...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Glen, this reminded me of something I heard J. Vernon McGee say on the radio. He said he had no problem understanding why God hated Esau; it was just that he couldn't understand why God loved Jacob!

    My opinion is that the lost did not have to be predestined to go to hell, but were already headed there. God's predestination only has reference to what He would accomplish/accomplished that some might not go to Hell.
     
    #10 rlvaughn, Nov 26, 2001
  11. S. Baptist

    S. Baptist New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
    S.
    I prefer to let scripture defend itself. ;)    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yep, Me too.

    How does the Bible say we obtain our "righteousness", Let's look at what "IT DOES SAY".

    Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness,
    have attained to righteousness,

    "even the righteousness which is of faith."

    According to the above verse, "righteousness" comes by "Faith"

    Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it ("It" being righteousness) not by faith, but as it
    were by the works of the law.

    OK, How does a person get "Faith"??

    Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall
    they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a
    preacher?

    The Bible teaches, "Hearing", "Believing" ="Righteousness".

    Can we "refuse to hear", absolutely.

    Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it
    is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    To whom does God want this Gospel preached?

    Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
    creature.

    Why Preach to "every creature"??

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
    longsuffering to us-ward,

    "NOT WILLING" that any should perish",

    "but "THAT ALL" should come to repentance.


    If you preach "salvation" to an "un-elect", (you being ignorant of their election) you're
    actually preaching a "lie" to them under predestination, making God's word "void".

    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me
    void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I
    sent it.

    How does God's word accomplish it's mission??

    God's word spoken today is a "witness", either for or against you on Judgment day, it doesn't
    return "void".

    Those who have "ears to hear" will be Justified "by Faith", and those who refuse to "hear"
    will be condemned, "by no Faith".

    Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Satan didn't deceive Adam and Eve, they were "predestined" to sin, and neither does anyone
    have to worry about being "Deceived by him", what difference does it make, if our eternal
    home is "predestined".

    2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

    "Hearing", "Believing" is man's contribution toward "Righteousness", not predestination,
    God isn't willing that any should perish, and said so, "in plain English".
     
    #11 S. Baptist, Nov 26, 2001
  12. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3 New Member

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    Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

    Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

    God would not have placed eternal death upon men and separation from Him before He created them, and at the same time say He created them for His pleasure.

    Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

    God would not pronounce His creation good if before its existence He had plagued His creation with the death of certain men.

    Nobody is "predestined" to go to hell. God’s predestination is that those who receive the Lord shall be like the Lord Jesus. That is predestination and nothing else is.

    John Calvin was a giant of theology, and I'm not saying I understand more than he did, but we must remember, God's Word is our final authority, not some man-made system of theology.

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
     
    #12 Psalm145 3, Nov 27, 2001
  13. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Question for S. Baptist and Psalm145 3: Are you promoting universalism? Do you believe everyone will be saved?

    S. Baptist, nice piece of “out-of-context” tying together scriptures to twist their meaning.

    Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

    “Born of the Spirit” means born from above. Are you saying everyone does this? Nuts!

    "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." (Luke 18:17)

    Was Jesus speaking of nobody?

    "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28)

    " And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 14:15-16)

    "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelations 21-8)

    Somebody’s got it wrong; either God’s Word or you guys!

    "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (Rev 22:14-15 NIV)

    This is it - the final picture! God has restored the created order; a new heaven and a new earth, and banished Satan and Christ-rejecting sinners to eternal (for ever and ever) separation from God, true justice since they died wanting no part of Him. This is the end of God's Revelation to mankind, and states there will be those on the inside (heaven) and those on the "Outside" (hell).

    Since you have repeatedly been shown dozens of scriptures that clearly proclaim election and predestination, and have not believed, I am done arguing the point. ;)
     
    #13 John Wells, Nov 27, 2001
  14. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3 New Member

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    Brother John, please take a few minutes and read this article by James Crumpton, Westside Baptist Church, Natchez, Mississippi.

    For the Lily; Against the TULIP

    Just because somebody doesn't agree with Calvinism doesn't mean he is automatically Arminian or even Universalist. Both Calvin and Arminius were wrong. We have to stand on the solid rock of God's Word, not on the sinking sand of man-made systems of theology.

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Psalm145 3 ]
     
    #14 Psalm145 3, Nov 27, 2001
  15. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    And I'm not a Calvinist. I believe he interpreted the scriptures correctly concerning salvation, however.

    Crumpton: We don’t help God save us. God does it totally and altogether by Himself.

    I agree! Calvin would too!

    Crumpton: then if we could go down, down, down to the charred walls of the damned and listen to the shrieks of damned souls in Hell-fire and brimstone; then if you can tell me how far it is from the highest Heaven to the lowest Hell by the way of Calvary, I can tell you how much is in that little word "grace."

    He alludes to there being people in hell . . . I agree! Calvin would too!

    So if it’s all God and not us who saves, and if there are people in hell, how did they get there? Crumpton contradicts himself. If you admit that those who receive eternal life in heaven do so “totally and altogether by Himself” (God), and God says, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy . . .” then those “damned souls in Hell-fire” are there because God did not do for them what He did for Crumpton:

    “Oh, I am so glad I’m saved! But when I get to Heaven, I won’t be able to brag on Crumpton, because it is totally a work of the Lord Jesus. I was just a lost, no-good, Hell-deserving sinner, without God and without hope. One brother said, "He just gave me something for nothing."

    Those people in hell he mentions must not have been given hearts to accept “something for nothing!”

    As for his TULIP rebuttals, he certainly falls short of refuting any points.

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
    #15 John Wells, Nov 27, 2001
  16. S. Baptist

    S. Baptist New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
    Question for S. Baptist and Psalm145 3: Are you promoting universalism? Do you believe everyone will be saved?


    ;)    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Everyone saved? "NO"

    What I'm saying is that "EVERYONE" has the opportunity to "be saved", BUT not everyone accept salvation.

    Predestination teaches that "salvation" isn't offered to "everyone", only the elect.

    That's what I refuting.

    The Gospel is preached to "every creature" for a witness,

    Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;

    People who refuse to "hear", (accept) this Gospel the spirit will be a witness against them in Judgment, those who "hear" are saved, this is why the Gospel is never (void) preached "in vain". It will accomplish "something", either now or later.

    A person is "justified" (saved) by "THEIR FAITH" (belief) in God, not predestination.

    Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by (our)faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


    We're not "justified" by Predestination, but by "our Faith".

    2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight [​IMG]
     
    #16 S. Baptist, Nov 28, 2001
  17. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3 New Member

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    Dr. Adrian Rogers has released a kindly yet firm denunciation of what is commonly known as Calvinism in this 22 page booklet called:

    Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!
    by Dr. Adrian Rogers
    Order from:
    Love Worth Finding Ministries
    P.O. Box 38300
    Memphis, TN 38183-0300
    1-800-274-LOVE (5683)
    1-901-382-7900

    Rogers once and for all demonstrates that the Bible says nothing about God picking only a select chosen few to go to heaven while wanting the rest of the world to perish.

    Here is what Dr. Adrian Rogers says, "Now use a little sense. What potter in his right mind would be making vessels so he could turn around and destroy them? What potter is going to say, "I'm going to get a whole stack of them over here on the wall and then I'm going to break them all?" That sounds more like a madman."

    Amen!
     
    #17 Psalm145 3, Nov 29, 2001
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    Here is what Dr. Adrian Rogers says, "Now use a little sense. What potter in his right mind would be making vessels so he could turn around and destroy them? What potter is going to say, "I'm going to get a whole stack of them over here on the wall and then I'm going to break them all?" That sounds more like a madman."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well a couple of verses would be in order.

    Rogers says to use a little sense. Does he also comment on the fact that "My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Is 55:8-9)? The problem with people like you and I and Rogers using sense is that our sense will never match the wondrous perfections of God's mind.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Rom 11:33-36 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Rogers would encourage the vessel to question the potter. Does he consider Isaih 29:16

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding "?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In Jeremiah 18, the story of the potter, The potter there plainly talks of his plans to bring calamity on his vessels.

    This "sense" of Rogers asks if the potter would make a vessel that he would destroy. Consider Rom 9:21-24:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Rogers would question the very wisdom of God and deny God the right to be God. I would hardly call that sense. It is clear that it is within the potter's prerogative to make a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction. I don't think we are in a position to question the potter about why he does what he does.

    [ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
    #18 Pastor Larry, Nov 29, 2001
  19. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Rogers says to use a little sense. Does he also comment on the fact that "My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Is 55:8-9)? The problem with people like you and I and Rogers using sense is that our sense will never match the wondrous perfections of God's mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Amen Larry to this and your entire post. Until believers grasp that we are the created and HE is CREATOR, humanistic rationalism will ruin our theology and our churches.
     
    #19 Chris Temple, Nov 29, 2001
  20. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    Dr. Adrian Rogers has released a kindly yet firm denunciation of what is commonly known as Calvinism in this 22 page booklet called:

    Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!
    by Dr. Adrian Rogers
    Order from:
    Love Worth Finding Ministries
    P.O. Box 38300
    Memphis, TN 38183-0300
    1-800-274-LOVE (5683)
    1-901-382-7900

    Rogers once and for all demonstrates that the Bible says nothing about God picking only a select chosen few to go to heaven while wanting the rest of the world to perish.

    Here is what Dr. Adrian Rogers says, "Now use a little sense. What potter in his right mind would be making vessels so he could turn around and destroy them? What potter is going to say, "I'm going to get a whole stack of them over here on the wall and then I'm going to break them all?" That sounds more like a madman."

    Amen!    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What is horribly evident from evidence like this and many others I have heard and seen is that those who battled long and hard for the inerrancy of the Bible, and won, dont really believe what it says when it doesnt line up with their pragmatic rationalism.
     
    #20 Chris Temple, Nov 29, 2001
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