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Preexistence...a must read!!!

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jcf, Feb 21, 2005.

  1. jcf

    jcf Guest

    Everything we see in creation was first in YAHWEH's mind as part of His eternal plan. When He speaks, He speaks of those things which are already in His mind, He is revealing His eternal plan.

    The prophecies in the OT are glimpses of YAHWEH's plan which were and are contained in His thoughts before they become literal.

    Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

    These secrets are the plans of YAHWEH or His thoughts.

    In the Hebrew thought process you will not find preexistence as taught in the trinity doctrine. What you will find in Hebrew thought is God's plan contained within His mind. Everything we read regarding creation, salvation, redemption, us and even Jesus was first in God's mind until He brought it to reality or made it literal.

    The following verses will help you understand this concept of Hebrew thought that is found throughout Scripture. Pay close attention to key words such as foreknowledge, secret, foundation of the world, plan, foreordained, purpose, mystery all these words reveal what was in YAHWEH's mind as part of His plan and purpose.

    Acts 2:23 But God, following his prearranged plan, let you use the Roman government to nail him to the cross and murder him.

    Acts 15:18 That is what the Lord says, who reveals his plans made from the beginning.

    Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

    Luke 9:31 They were splendid in appearance, glorious to see; and they were speaking of his death at Jerusalem, to be carried out in accordance with God's plan.

    Luke 22:22 I must die. It is part of God's plan. But, oh, the horror awaiting that man who betrays me.''

    Romans 2:16 The day will surely come when at God's command Jesus Christ will judge the secret lives of everyone, their inmost thoughts and motives; this is all part of God's great plan which I proclaim.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all that happens to us is working for our good if we love God and are fitting into his plans.

    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Ephesians 1:9 God has told us his secret reason for sending Christ, a plan he decided on in mercy long ago;

    Ephesians 1:11 Moreover, because of what Christ has done we have become gifts to God that he delights in, for as part of God's sovereign plan we were chosen from the beginning to be his, and all things happen just as he decided long ago.

    Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    2 Timothy 1:9 It is he who saved us and chose us for his holy work, not because we deserved it but because that was his plan long before the world began--to show his love and kindness to us through Christ.

    1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Was Jesus slain before the world was or was He slain 2000 years ago?

    Jesus was slain before the world was as being in the mind of God as part of His salvation plan.

    Did God speak to us through His Son in the Old Testament? No, He did not, He spoke to us through the prophets.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Lets look at the genealogy of Jesus to see if He existed in the Old Testament. God has taken some time here to list this out for us so we would not be deceived by Greek mythology and philosophy.

    Matthew 1:1-16 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

    You can see in the genealogy of Jesus that He didn't preexist literally in the Old Testament but rather He is only existed in seed form in the same way you and I are in seed form prior to our birth. This is called the family tree or the blood line.

    Trinitarians who believe Jesus preexisted will use verses such as the following to prove the preexistence of Jesus.

    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Trinitarians say that because Jesus was sent from God it shows that He preexisted in heaven prior to coming to earth. To be sent from God or by God only means you were given a mission by God according to His will and eternal purpose. It does not mean you literally came from heaven.

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    John the Baptist was sent from God, we don't teach that he came from heaven first.

    2 Kings 1:14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight.

    Is there fire in heaven?

    Psalms 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.

    Are there flies and frogs in heaven?

    John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

    There must be a lot of bushel baskets of bread in heaven.

    When we read of things or people who have been sent by God or came out from God or came from heaven, it just means that it was given or sent by God.

    If President Bush, who is in Washington, sends troops from Fort Hood Texas to Iraq it doesn't mean that the troops literally came from Washington. They were sent from the authority and will of President Bush who is in Washington.

    God had a salvation plan from the beginning which is a mystery to His creation. He slowly over time reveals His plan to us. This is where you get all the words such as, foreknew, foreknowledge, from the foundation of the world, eternal purpose, mystery and so on.

    Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    Ephesians 3:11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

    1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might bethe firstborn among many brethren.

    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    There is so much more to cover such as Jesus being the firstborn of all creation and Jesus creating the world but I'll stop here and let you ponder. I'm sure you will find more as you continue in your studies.

    ONENESS New Member

    Dec 10, 2001
    Likes Received:
    intresting thought.

    The son or (flesh) was not with god in the beginning, but the word or Logos was. (John 1:1-14)

    But Jesus on the other hand was. Who is Jesus? None other than YAHWEH himself. Jesus was Yahweh manifested in the Flesh. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, The MIGHTY GOD, The EVERLASTING FATHER. (Isa 9:6)

    Yahweh took on the form of a man when the fullness of time had come. (Gal 4:4)

    The son or the flesh of God did not preexist. But the eternal Spirit of Jesus did.

    [ February 21, 2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
  3. Glory2God

    Glory2God New Member

    Dec 9, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
    Gen19:18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

    Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Gen 11:5 ¶ And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
    6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    7 Go to, let us go down , and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Isa 48: 15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
    16 ¶ Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

    No mythology, just pure old fashioned King James Bible. There's plenty more(from the Old Testament) where that came from!!!

    If you don't believe Jesus is who he says he is, you are NOT saved!!!! [​IMG]

    The reference in Isa 9 to Jesus being the everlasting Father is prophetic in nature.

    Isa 22:21 And I will clothe him with thy robe , and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

    Sadly,for the most part, Baptists don't have a clue about this stuff.
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    This is a strawman. No one claims Jesus was "incarnated in the OT". No claims he had earthly "geneology" predating His birth.

    Why are you going there?

    Part II -

    IF your intent is to show that He onl started to exist as we do - when born to Mary -- then you have to START by showing all the texts that ONLY apply to Christ -- apply to us.

    For example - THE WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS GOD... HE CREATED all that there is... THE WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt AMONG US and WE beheld Him..

    Show how God also claims such things about each of us.

    Then of course there is Phil 2 - "WHO ALTHOUGH He existed IN THE FORM OF GOD... Took on the FORM of a man"

    Show how WE did the same thing.

    Heb 1:6 speaking of the Son says "LET ALL the Angels of God worship Him" ...

    Show how they are told to worship us as well.

    In Christ,