1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Preservation

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by KenH, May 21, 2022.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "All those who undergo one phase of the application of redemption also experience the next phase. For example, all whom God has predestined, he also summons to salvation in due time. Now, Romans 8:30 says, "Those he justified, he also glorified." This means that all those who receive justification will also receive glorification; no one who is justified will failed to be glorified. Since glorification refers to the consummation of God's saving work in the chosen ones, this means that once a person has been justified, his forensic righteousness will never be lost. Since all those who are justified will also be glorified, true Christians will never lose their salvation.

    This doctrine is often called the PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS, and also ETERNAL SECURITY in some circles. These terms are accurate, since true Christians do consciously persevere in faith and the elect are indeed eternally secure in their salvation. However, many biblical passages on this topic emphasize that it is God who actively preserves the Christian from the beginning to the end of his salvation, that Jesus is "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2). This being the case, PRESERVATION is a better term. It reflects the fact that God is the one who truly maintains the Christian's salvation, and not the believer himself.

    To favor the perspective of preservation does not deny that the Christian must deliberately improve and consciously struggle to persevere. It is unbiblical to say that since it is God who keeps us, then there is no need for us to exercise any conscious effort in our spiritual development. "Let go, and let God," a popular phrase that probably came from the Keswick movement, is unbiblical when it comes to sanctification. However, the word "preservation" helps to remind us that it is God who grants and causes any improvement and stability in our growth in knowledge and holiness, even if we are very aware of the efforts that we exert toward our spiritual development."

    Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL, those He glorified refers to a past action, not a future action. Can no Calvinist even grasp the tense of glorified. The tense refers to something that has already occurred, a done-deal so to speak. The idea is that those who have received justification have also received glorification.

    So while once saved, always saved is the biblical doctrine, this verse (Romans 8:30) does not support the doctrine, at least not as the above article claims.

    I believe 1 Peter 1:3-5 teaches God protects our faith to keep us for our heavenly inheritance as a child of God.

    And note that this copy and paste poster denies Progressive Sanctification, but here endorses spiritual development. I kid you not.
     
    #2 Van, May 21, 2022
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I prefer the term "continuous sanctification", as it is a process that continues on through the elect's walk on this earth after God has regenerated him and granted him faith and repentance. But I have no real problem with the term "progressive sanctification" as long as one understands that "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13), which is also the way that Vincent Cheung explains it in his Systematic Theology :

    "As Paul writes: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)

    The Christian is to actively take his part in sanctification, and deliberately pursue a life of obedience to God "in fear and trembling." Nevertheless, the passage explains that even the working out of our salvation is in fact a work of God: "It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Our choices and actions remain under God's control after regeneration. Therefore, although a person is conscious of his efforts and struggles in sanctification, in the end God receives the honor, and the Christian still has no basis to boast of his achievements."
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thus you posedt your "Hyper Calvinist Confession" link while at the same time endorsing the opposite view of the articles denial of progressive sanctification. I kid you not.

    And note the denial of our striving to earn rewards such that we can enter heaven "abundantly." No matter the subject, the Calvinism views do not reflect scripture in many cases. According to Calvinism we do not "earn rewards."

    1Co 3:10-15
    According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [fn]the quality of each one’s work.

    If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.​
     
    #4 Van, May 21, 2022
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I assume you meant to type "And note that this copy and paste poster". Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please explain. I don't think I did what you accused me of.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You deny that if we build on the foundation of Christ with our work, we may receive reward, thus we engage in progressive sanctification where are life becomes more Christ-like and we become better servants as Ambassadors of Christ. According to Calvinism, our rewards are not really ours but those predetermined by God. That Sir is a straight up denial of scripture.
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Apparently you deny this:

    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    and you apparently deny this:

    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    And that apparently you are not satisfied with the Biblical teaching of having Christ as the elect's reward and that you think that by your actions you can merit something other than Christ:

    Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

    But, I quote the apostle Paul to you and all who deny Biblical truth:

    Romans 3: 3-4 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

    That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings,
    And mightest overcome when thou art judged.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Note if our human actions always were compelled by God's decrees and predestination, then we would not receive "rewards" for our efforts
    Now we get the unsubstantiated false charge avalanche.

    Do I deny that once saved our indwelt Holy Spirit, our "Helper" influences our actions? Nope.
    Do I deny that once born anew, a new creation we were created for good works? Nope
    Am I not satisfied with Biblical teachings that no one "merits" salvation? Nope, that is the gospel I present. Romans 9:16
    Do I deny God is just and faithful? Nope

    Having once again addresses the non-stop false charges of those proclaiming the false doctrines of Calvinism, let us return to the subject, the validity of "progressive sanctification" where we receive rewards for building on the foundation of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 3:10-15
    According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [fn]the quality of each one’s work.

    If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.​

    Now the Greek word translated "reward" refers to receiving something due as a result of doing a work. This is denied by Calvinism.
     
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "he will receive a reward" - notice the word is singular, not the plural word that Van wishes to foist upon the reader. As, as previous been shown in Scripture earlier in this thread, the elect's reward is Christ.

    And Van wishes to foist upon the reader that he believes that he can put God in his debt and merit anything from God based on his human effort, even though Scripture says, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags". (Isaiah 64:6)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL, I cited and quoted 1 Corinthians 3:14 where a person's work receives a reward (singular). Note the person is building on the foundation of Christ. To repeat, Calvinism denies that a born anew person receives a reward for His post salvation ministry to Christ.

    Next we continue to be flooded with false charges. Did I say I can put God in my debt by service to Christ? Nope. Scripture says God chooses to reward our service to Christ. On and on folks, pay no attention to all these slanderous claims by the false teacher.

    Last point, an unsaved person's works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. Did I deny that? Nope. How about a saved person's works of righteousness? What does our ministry reap? The increased harvest of "our" righteousness. 2 Corinthians 9:10
     
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, the elect's reward is Christ. Yes, any good works that the elect do are predetermined by God, as everything that happens is predetermined by God, as taught in the Holy Scriptures. I find tremendous comfort in this fact. Living and thinking that one's life is a crapshoot and subject to luck is a terrible way to exist.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Van Since you believe in "rewards", what do you think the elect will receive in addition to Christ as a reward? A prime location in a "better" part of the new earth compared to those "poor slobs" who didn't "do" as much?

    Your teaching reeks of human pride and a mercenary mentality.
     
    #13 KenH, May 21, 2022
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvinism obviously does not put forth all the bogus views claimed to represent biblical doctrine. To repeat, Calvinism is claimed to deny that a born anew person receives a reward for His post salvation ministry to Christ according to this poster. And anyone who points out where the bible differs from Calvinism is attacked personally, such as "your teaching reeks of human pride and mercenary mentality." No mention of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

    Scripture says some things happen by chance, but some Calvinists say everything is predetermined by God. They falsely claim God does not set life and death before the lost and begs them to choose life. Thus Calvinism is unbiblical fiction.
     
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) You did not answer my question: Since you believe in "rewards", what do you think the elect will receive in addition to Christ as a reward? A prime location in a "better" part of the new earth compared to those "poor slobs" who didn't "do" as much?

    2)
    Actually, the Scriptures say:

    Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; But the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

    Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, As the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
     
  16. CalTech

    CalTech Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2022
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Greetings,

    I was wondering did you place this article by Cheung to argue against his stance, or are you in agreement with this man's "over intellectualized" reasoning?

    Thank you.
    The Lord bless you....
    In His Love....
     
  17. CalTech

    CalTech Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2022
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Greetings,

    I first would like to state, that this man's "over intellectualizing" God's Word is just fleshly thinking and head knowledge which "puffs up". I have never heard of this man, and I would not be reading his "books" to say the least.

    I would like to point out that his statement: ""Let go, and let God," a popular phrase that probably came from the Keswick movement, is unbiblical when it comes to sanctification."

    This statement did not come out of the "Methodist Keswick Holiness Movement", the Keswick Holiness movement brought about the belief that a believer could live a "sinless" life, "if" they tried "hard enough" to mortify the flesh. I know I've done research into the Holiness Keswick Movement, because of my experience with the majorly faulty teaching of "Oswald Chamber", who did preach one could live a day without sinning. The Title of his "devotional" ( MY Utmost for His Highest") alone informs one of what he believed, which he did learn from the "Keswick Holiness Movement" which he was involved with.

    I found the article particularly over indulgent, and convoluted, which does not assist any "babe in Christ" to understand what this man is trying to teach. Just allow the believer to be encouraged to press in the reading of God's Word and asking the Holy Spirit to please give understanding where needed, for the Word of God is Spirit, therefore needs to be understood by the Holy Spirit. Fleshly human intellect and reasoning always feeds the flesh and puff's it up, and established one's own "self-righteousness.

    For me many teachings in Hebrews, and Philippians, and in many other's of Paul's writings, always encourages us, to ALLOW God to do the work within, by the Spirit, for by trying in the flesh will always lead to pain and suffering and self-righteousness.


    Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



    The Lord bless you.....
    In His Love....
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) False claim I did not answer the question of rewards. I quote 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 twice in thread. Pay no attention to those who deny Christ will reward those effective in ministry.

    2) False claim number 2, the denial that scripture says some things happen by chance. Thus a denial that God allows some things to happen by chance. See Luke 10:31 for example and:

    1 Samuel 6:9
    “But watch: if it goes up by the way of its own territory to Beth-shemesh, then He has done this great evil to us. But if not, then we will know that it was not His hand that struck us; it happened to us by chance.”
    2 Samuel 1:6
    The young man who told him said, “By chance I happened to be on Mount Gilboa, and behold, Saul was leaning on his spear. And behold, the chariots and the horsemen had overtaken him.​
     
    #18 Van, May 22, 2022
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
  19. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,746
    Likes Received:
    979
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree with what Cheung states in the article. I have not read his entire Systematic Theology(but I plan to, the Lord willing), but the parts I have read I am in agreement with.
     
  20. CalTech

    CalTech Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2022
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Greetings,

    I see, thank you for telling me.
    I discern he is not trained or taught by the Holy Spirit. The Language that is in the Written Word, KJV, is simple and to the point without all this "high and mighty theology" which will mean nothing for the Babes in Christ.

    God's Word is simple and straight forward as the Holy Spirit grants us the gift to receive the meaning of God's word in Spirit and not of the fleshly mind of men.

    The Lord Bless you.....
    In His Love.....
     
Loading...