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Preterism

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by 13th Disciple, Jun 10, 2005.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    It is not a straw man to those who believe the events of 1948 fulfilled prophecy. Am I to assume you agree with me in that the formation of Israel in 1948 fulfilled no Biblical prophecy?

    You are kidding, right?
     
  2. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    You are kidding, right? </font>[/QUOTE]Do you think that the word "salvation" is always talking about eternity and never about anything a bit more temporal?

    Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved
     
  3. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Of course, but do you think that is how JamesNewman was using it?
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean partial eternal life? :confused:
     
  5. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Of course, but do you think that is how JamesNewman was using it? </font>[/QUOTE]I am 95-98% sure that I know how James was using it.

    Lacy
     
  6. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Lacy knows what I'm saying. You may be saved in an eternal sense but be in a lot of trouble at the judgement seat. If you are not living for the Lord with the expectation that He is going to return and reward you for your works, your works will suffer, and you will suffer loss.
     
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Regardless, it's rather hard to have anything better than eternal life. [​IMG]

    I think we have to be careful to not be merely working for a reward. We should be willing to work for the Lord even if there is no reward.
     
  8. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    But there is a reward no matter what. Serving the Lord is a reward in itself.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Amen, brother. [​IMG]
     
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    We have been commanded to seek rewards, it is not an option. The Lord is gracious to promise us any payment for our service, but He expects us to serve. We will be rewarded for our works at the judgment seat, whether they are good or bad.

    Colossians 3:23-25
    23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
    24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
    25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    If the judgment seat is not future, then there is no reward of the inheritance (other than what Grasshopper would claim we have already) so what other motivation would you have to serve the Lord?

    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
     
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The fact that God commands us to serve Him. Even we serve Him at our best we are unworthy servants.

    Luke 17:7-10 (ESV)
    "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? [8] Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? [9] Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? [10] So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.' "
     
  12. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I think this is intended to keep us from pride more than anything else. It is still only by His grace that we will be rewarded, not because we deserve it. So on the one hand, we must remember that we are unprofitable servants. But on the other, we have to know that He is going to reward us, even desires to reward us, if we will be faithful.

    Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

    Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    We should say that we are unprofitable servants, and rightly so, for the word says we should let our praise be from other men's lips.

    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
     
  13. shannonL

    shannonL New Member

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    James,

    Ken H doesn't have an answer because if he did it would blow a hole in his partial preterist or preterist ship. He dodged your point. I would serve the Lord if their was no reward. Salvation by His grace is enough. But your point is still correct. When will we get rewarded if the Bema is not future. Oh! i get it. Its symbolic right?
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. [​IMG]
     
  15. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Is this the judgement you are referring to ShannonL:

    Matt 16: 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
     
  16. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Kind of a hanging pause there...

    I assume that your argument will be the next verse which states:

    Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    What is your reason for rejecting the obvious interpretation that this is refering to the transfiguration account in the very next verse?
     
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    1. I don't believe there is a 2000+ year gap between verse 27 and 28. Do you? If verse 28 refers to the Transfiguration, then why doesn't verse 27?

    2. The transfiguration was 6 days later. The word "some" indicates many would not be alive. If it were speaking of the Transfiguration Jesus would have used the word "all" or "most" assuming some actually died in those six days. "Some" fits perfectly if the event is 40 years away.

    3. Did Jesus "come into His Kingdom" at the Transfiguration? Remember you must maintain your "literalist" approach. It doesn't say it is a picture, type, or foretaste of His Kingdom. It says they will see Him come into His Kingdom. Now where are those who say we should accept the plain meaning of scripture?

    Why do you reject the obvious meaning and put this event at the Transfiguration?
     
  18. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    1. There is no gap.

    2. The word some does indeed indicate that some would die before they saw this event. This would make sense when you take into account that only three of them were witness to the transfiguration. The rest of them would indeed die and not "see" this until the literal return of Christ.

    3. Jesus did not come into His kingdom at the transfiguration, but Peter James and John did see this. Jesus told them that they had seen a vision.

    Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    Peter himself interpretted this event for us.

    2 Peter 1:16-18
    16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    You forget that the Bible is full of people who see things before they have happened. The event was seeing, not Jesus coming into His kingdom. Why would he not say, Verily some of you shall not taste of death until I have come in my Kingdom? Probably because this was not what happened. What happened was they saw.

    In all three Gospels where the statement is made by Jesus that some would not see death before they saw..., the transfiguration immediately follows. Peter says he has not followed fables concerning the power and coming but was an eyewitness. Did peter see or not?
     
  19. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    So verse 27 is connected in time to verse 28. You say verse 28 speaks of the Transfiguration then verse 27 must also speak of the Transfiguration.

    27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Did angels accompany Jesus at the Transfiguration?
    Did He reward each man according to his works at the Transfiguration?

    Rev 22:12 sounds alot like Matt 16:27.

    Rev 22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    Did Rev. 22:12 also happen at the Transfiguration or is this a different rendering of rewards than that which is found in Matthew?

    Are you saying you believe all but 3 died within this 6 day period?

    Jesus did not come into His Kingdom at the Transfiguration???? You say this despite what Jesus says?

    Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    What happened to literal, plain meaning of scripture? Jesus clearly and plainly says they will see Him coming in His Kingdom, yet you say He did not.

    These speak of the Transfiguration. Not Matthew 16:27-28.

    Then why did Jesus say otherwise?

    He did:

    Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    So?

    Peter saw the Transfiguration.
     
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    OK, maybe I didn't quite explain myself with the gap. I'll try again for you. I suppose yes there is a gap between the transfiguration and the second coming, if thats what you are referring to. I meant there is no gap between the judgment and the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. The seeing of the vision which we refer to as the transfiguration was certainly 2000 years ago, and the coming of the Lord in His kingdom has not occured. That doesn't mean they didn't see it. They were seeing something that was not yet.

    Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    Jesus was not yet glorified as He will be when He reigns over the Earth, this was something future that they saw.

    Revelation 21:23
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    As for the rest of your post, I think you intentionally misunderstand a lot of what I say. Either that or you don't read very well.
     
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