Preterism

James_Newman

Amen. Well saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I believe preterism is bad Bible exegesis. There is excellent evidence that preterism is in error.

I cite:

"premillennialism (and futurism) in the ancient church" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36902

"The apparent futurist eschatology of the Apostle John's disciples and its relevancy" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36762

"It appears the earliest church fathers were premillienists and futurists plus..." at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35528

"Was Origen's very non-literal interpretation of Scripture/prophecy invalid?" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38125

"Historic premillennialism/dispensational premillennialism. Deciding what to accept" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38016 (I wish to add that this thread will have further postings as time goes on. Please make sure you read post #21 thru post #23).


Here are some resources supporting or relating to the eschatology of historic premillenialism which readers may wish to examine:

"How many historical accounts of great signs and wonders done by false Christs?" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39486

"Mathew 24: 34, What does it mean?" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39215

"What does "at hand" and "quickly" mean in Revelation regarding Jesus's return?" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39487

"Eschatology: Why did you pick your eschatology position? Is assurance possible? Misc." at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38471

"Peacocks, giraffes, deep sea creatures and futurist eschatology" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38177

"A colossal problem for preterism?" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39813

"Preterists, where are the drought(s) around 70 A.D. ?" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40744

"Preterists, was there a great earthquake in Jerusalem around 70 A.D. ?" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41591

 

So only the Transfiguration was what they would see before some tasted death? They would not see angels, nor His coming in His Kingdom, nor the rendering of works?

Such as?

Adam Clarke


Verse 40. At the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him
These kings are to be understood in reference to the times of which the prophet speaks. While the kingdoms of Egypt and Syria were subsisting, the king of the south and the north applied to them exclusively: but they did not exist at the time of which the prophet speaks; therefore other southern and northern powers must be sought. These we may find in the Saracens, who were of the Arabians, who came from the south, headed by the false prophet Mohammed, who pushed at him-made war on the Greek emperor Heraclius, and with amazing rapidity deprived him of Egypt, Syria, and many of his finest provinces.
And the king of the north
The Turks, who were originally Scythians, seized on the remains of the Greek empire; and in process of time rendered themselves masters of the whole. They are represented as coming like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen; their armies being chiefly composed of cavalry.
And with many ships
With these they got possession of many islands and maritime countries; and were so powerful in their fleets, that they entirely defeated the Venetians; and at last their fleets became of the utmost consequence to them in besieging, and afterwards taking, Constantinople, A.D. 1453, which they hold to the present day. So they entered into the countries, and overflowed, rendering themselves masters of all Asia Minor and Greece.
Verse 41. He shall enter also into the glorious land
Entirely subdue Judea.
And many countries shall be overthrown
Aleppo, Damascus, Gaza, and many other cities were forced to submit to them; and they hold them still.
But these shalt escape-Edom and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
These and other Arabians they have never been able to subdue. They still occupy the deserts; and receive a yearly pension of forty thousand crowns of gold from the Ottoman emperors, to permit the caravans, with the pilgrims for Mecca, to have a free passage.
Verse 42. He shall stretch forth his hand
He-the Ottoman emperors, have stretched forth the hand, not only on European, but also upon Asiatic and African countries. Egypt-has not escaped; it is a province of the Turkish government, as are also Fez, Morocco, Algiers, and many other African countries. And as the prophecy says they "got power over the silver and gold, and the precious things of Egypt," so it was; for when Selim conquered Egypt, A.D. 1517, he took all its spoils; and the immense sums drawn from it to the present day, and the wretchedness of the land in consequence, are almost incredible.
The Libyans and the Ethiopians
The Cushim-unconquered Arabs, all sought their friendship; and many of them are tributary to the present time.
Matthew Henry

VI. Here seems to be another expedition into Egypt, or, at least, a struggle with Egypt. The Romans had tied him up from invading Ptolemy, but now that king of the south pushes at him (Daniel 11:40 ), makes an attempt upon some of his territories, where upon Antiochus, the king of the north, comes against him like a whirlwind, with incredible swiftness and fury, with chariots, and horses, and many ships, a great force. He shall come trough countries, and shall overflow and pass over. In this flying march many countries shall be overthrown by him; and he shall enter into the glorious land, the land of Israel; it is the same word that is translated the pleasant land, Daniel 8:9 . He shall make dreadful work among the nations thereabout; yet some shall escape his fury, particularly Edom and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon, Daniel 11:41. He did not put these countries under contribution, because they had joined with him against the Jews. But especially the land of Egypt shall not escape, but he will quite beggar that, so bare will he strip it. This some reckon his fourth and last expedition against Egypt, in the tenth or eleventh year of his reign, under pretence of assisting the younger brother of Ptolemæus Philometer against him. We read not of any great slaughter made in this expedition, but great plunder; for, it should seem, that was what he came for: He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and all the precious things of Egypt, Daniel 11:43. Polybius, in Athenæus, relates that Antiochus, having got together abundance of wealth, by spoiling young Philometer, and breaking league with him, and by the contributions of his friends, bestowed a vast deal upon a triumph, in imitation of Paulus Æmilius, and describes the extravagance of it; here we are told how he got that money which he spent so profusely. Notice is here taken likewise of the use he made of the Lybians and Ethiopians, who bordered upon Egypt; they were at his steps; he had them at his foot, had them at his beck, and they made inroads upon Egypt to serve him.
VII. Here is a prediction of the fall and ruin of Antiochus, as before (Daniel 8:25 ), when he is in the height of his honour, flushed with victory, and laden with spoils, tidings out of the east and out of the north (out of the north-east) shall trouble him, Daniel 11:44. Or, He shall have intelligence, both from the eastern and northern parts, that the king of Parthia is invading his kingdom. This obliged him to drop the enterprises he had in hand, and to go against the Persians and Parthians that were revolting from him; and this vexed him, for now he thought utterly to ruin and extirpate the Jewish nation, when that expedition called him off, in which he perished. This is explained by a passage in Tacitus (though an impious one) where he commends Antiochus for his attempt to take away the superstition of the Jews, and bring in the manners of the Greeks, among them (ut teterrimam gentem in melius mutaret--to meliorate an odious nation), and laments that he was hindered from accomplishing it by the Parthian war. Now here is, 1. The last effort of his rage against the Jews. When he finds himself perplexed and embarrassed in his affairs he shall go forth with great fury to destroy and utterly to make away many, Daniel 11:44. The story of this we have 1 Mac. iii. 27, &c., what a rage Antiochus was in when he heard of the successes of Judas Maccabæus, and the orders he gave to Lysias to destroy Jerusalem. Then he planted the tabernacles of his palace, or tents of his court, between the seas, between the Great Sea and the Dead Sea. He set up his royal pavilion at Emmaus near Jerusalem, in token that, though he could not be present himself, yet he gave full power to his captains to prosecute the war against the Jews with the utmost rigour. He placed his tent there, as if he had taken possession of the glorious holy mountain and called it his own. Note, When impiety grows very impudent we may see its ruin near. 2. His exit: He shall come to his end and none shall help him; God shall cut him off in the midst of his days and none shall be able to prevent his fall. This is the same with that which was foretold Daniel 8:35 (He shall be broken without hand), where we took a view of his miserable end. Note, When God's time shall come to bring proud oppressors to their end none shall be able to help them, nor perhaps inclined to help them; for those that covet to be feared by all when they are in their grandeur, when they come to be in distress will find themselves loved by none; none will lend them so much as a hand or a prayer to help them; and, if the Lord do not help, who shall?

Literal translation:

Rev 9:16and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

Now do a little research and find out what myriad means and if “of” should be used as a multiplier.

Also according to your literalistic approach, you must believe this future war will involve horseman right? And of course there will have to be 200 million horses as well? I wonder if there are even 200 million horses on earth.

Then debate and discuss it here.

At least on this board those with differing views are not banned.

 

So God chose not to communicate with His creation in terms they could understand? Why would he do such a thing? Confusion perhaps?
So can we apply 2 Peter 3:8 to the MK and say it is only 1 day?

Is this how we are to interpret "quickly" throughout the NT?

What are we to think when the Bible says something is not near?

Danny Green answers this:

Within only four years ("in a little while") after the prophecy in Hag. 2:6-9; 21-23 was given, God overthrew all the nations, (i.e., He "shook the heavens, the earth, the sea and the dry land") and the desire (or wealth) of all nations came, and the earthly temple was filled with glory (with gold, silver, etc.). (Compare Haggai 1:15; 2:10 and Ezra 6:15)

This all took place when Darius King of Persia overturned Israel's enemies, who for years had been preventing the rebuilding of God's house. Darius decreed, "May God ...overthrow any king or people who lifts a hand to change this decree or to destroy this temple in Jerusalem." (Ezra 6:11-12) Darius forced Israel's enemies themselves to pay the full cost of the rebuilding, as well as the full cost of all the daily, priestly services. (Ezra 6:8-10)

The power of Israel's enemies was broken. They had tried to turn the king against Israel, (Ezra 5) but God turned their own stratagems against them. He made them subservient to His people, taking their own wealth for the building of His glorious, earthly house. God had thus "moved heaven and earth" to keep the covenant that He had made with His people through Moses. (Ezra 6:18; Hag. 2:5)

The fulfillment of Haggai 2:6-9; 21-23 in Zerubbabel's generation was typological. It foreshadowed the fulfillment of the better promise (Heb. 8:6) that was fulfilled in Christ's generation. Israel's building of the greater, earthly house in Zerubbabel's generation was an example of the building of the true, heavenly "House" in Christ.

Numerous Old Testament prophecy fulfillments are revealed in the New Testament to have been "types" of Christ. Perhaps the most prominent example of this "apostolic hermeneutic" is found in Israel's inheritance of the promised Land under Joshua. That Old Testament fulfillment of prophecy is revealed in the New Testament to have been a type / foreshadow of the promised, heavenly Inheritance in Christ. (Heb. 4) Many other examples of this method of interpretation can be found throughout the New Testament. Compare, for instance, Isa. 7:14-8:4 with Matt. 1:23-25.

How did the prophecy in Hag. 2:6-9; 21-23 find its "true" fulfillment in Christ? (Heb. 8:2; 9:24) Within perhaps only four years ("in a little while") after Hebrews 12:26 was written, (Hebrews was written probably in about A.D. 66.) God overthrew all the nations. He "shook the heavens, the earth, the sea and the dry land." The desire of all nations came, and God's Temple was filled with Glory.

This happened when God overturned His enemies who, in their persecution of the Church, had furiously resisted the construction of His New-Covenant Temple. (Eph. 2:21,22; I Peter 2:5) Despite the rage of the enemies, God enlisted countless multitudes of His enemies to build His new House (Rom. 5:10; Col. 1:21; Rev. 5:9). And those enemies who resisted to the end were crushed, and were cast out of the Kingdom in A.D. 70. (Matt. 8:12; 21:43; Lk. 13:28; Acts 4:25-28; Gal. 4:30; Rev. 3:9)

God "moved heaven and earth" to keep the Covenant that He made with His elect through the blood of Christ. Now the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit dwell eternally in the universal Church, which is the New-Covenant House of promise. (Jn. 14:23; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; Col. 1:27; II Peter 1:19; Rev. 3:20; 21:2-3) Through the power of the eternal Gospel, the desire of the nations flows into "the more perfect Tabernacle" today and forever, (Heb. 9:11; Rev. 21:26,27) and God Himself is its unfading Glory. (Rev. 21:23)

 

You didn't put an AD70 limit on it. You asked for references that it was not future:

We were in discussion on future prophecies and it was brought to my attention that these verses from Daniel have not been fulfilled as of yet... I was told that no world book or history reference has ever mentioned this epic struggle and it is totally future.

Shouldn't there be a record of this battle happening? If this isn't future ....know where I can find info on this?

Did you not read what I posted from Matthew Henry?

The Romans had tied him up from invading Ptolemy, but now that king of the south pushes at him (Daniel 11:40 ), makes an attempt upon some of his territories, where upon Antiochus, the king of the north,

So it's not really 200,000,000?

You ever wonder why the events of AD70 are mentioned nowhere in scripture? The Temple was destroyed. Jerusalem was destroyed. 1 million Jews were killed and the rest taken into slavery, yet no mention of this event anywhere in scripture. Think about it.

What is this evidence for a late-dating?
Any Biblical evidence?

Because it wasn't written after the event.

Not sure your point. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all record the Olivet Discourse. If you harmonize them you get the full picture. Matt.34:34 is the key.

 

Jack Van Impe is the preterists best friend.

If he wishes to refute preterism then why won't he debate one in a public forum? He has had opportunities to so and turns them down. Just like MacArthur, Lindsey, LaHaye, etc.....

 

You're working too hard.

"They are teaching that all Bible prophecies have been fulfilled and Christ returned in 70 a.d. after the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews! "

Look around yourself. Does this worl look or feel like how the bible described the new heaven and the new earth?

You see any historical reports of Christ appearing with trumpets?

Besides - They believe that I and II and III John were written between 80 to 95 AD; and they believe Revelation was written around 81 to 96 AD. Seems that John would have MENTIONED it if Christ had already returned in all His Glory "ten years ago".

Not to mention it would be hard for the prophecies of Revelation, regarding certain churches, to be fulfilled 11 to 26 years before the prophecy was made.