Pretribulation's denials

1. Pretrib deny the comparing of Matt. 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17 both are fit same so beautiful.

2. Pretrib deny 2 Thess. 2:3 tells us, rapture shall not come till we must see two things: 1. apostasy must come to pass first 2. we shall face the revealed of Antichrist first

3. Pretrib deny 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 is the part of Christ's Body as Church.

4. Pretrib deny the whole context of Matthew chapter 24 is give instruction and warning for the Church

5. Pretrib deny the warnings of Rev. 13:9-18 and Rev. 14:9-12 unto the Church, that we must take heed and not be deceived end up in hell. The reason is, Pretrib strong depend on OSAS(Once Saved Always Saved) doctrine.

6, Pretrib deny Bible teaches us that we are appointed for tribulations. - John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3-4; 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 2 Thess. 1:4-7; and Rev. 13:7. Because word, 'pre' means, before. Pretribulation means, before tribulation. If suppose, pretrib is correct, that means, Church never, never experince ANY kinds of tribulations, persecutions throughout whole church history. Then, something wrong with the Church. Huh???

I am thinking of any more to add lists what pretrib deny. If any of you are posttrib, you can add to the list, if you appear in your mind, please add it to the list, why does pretrib deny the scriptures.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Amen, Brother DeafPostTrib -- Preach it!

Strange, i thought you were one of those
who has God condemn to hell 99% of those who
say they trust him, in the Tribualtion Period.
As you can see, the twin Biblical
Truths: Pretrib Rapture and
Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) has
100% of those who believe in God
going to heaven when Jesus comes again.

How can posties portray such
an evil picture of God?

 

Amen, Brother DeafPostTrib -- Preach it !

During the Tribulation Period the
Jewish Israeli elect saints are the
prime targets of God's salvation.
The Church Age born-again Christian
elect saints are all gone in the pretribulatin
Rapture. The two groups of God's elect saints
will be joined together for eternity
at the Second Advent of Jesus when Jesus
comes to destroy the Antichrist.

So it is true: Pretrib deny 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 is the part of Christ's Body as Church.

 

Ed,

I think you seem not understand Rev. 13:9-18 & Rev. 14:9-12, or you seems not accept these are apply to us as Christians.

Rev. 13:9-18 and Rev. 14:9-12 both are VERY SERIOUS WARNING to every person either Jew or Gentile must take heed it, IF any person worship Antichrist, or take the mark of the beast, will go into eternality punishment - lake of fire.

Many pretrib pastors saying these are NOT apply to us, because we rapture first - praise the Lord amen! Congregation loved it- 2 Tim. 4:3-4 - "itching ears". 'itching ear' means comfortable soft preaching as they love to hear it.

Rev. 13:9-18 and Rev. 14:9-12 both are very clear against OSAS doctrine.

2 Tim. 4:2 says, "PREACH IT!" That means, we preach EVERYTHING from Genesis to Revelation, not just pick out some areas apply to the 'Church'.

Word, 'Jews' appear in book of Revelation only TWO times- Rev. 2:9 and 3:9. But, 'Jew' is NOT appear anywhere from Revelation chapter 6 to 19, does that mean Jews are excluded from Revelation chapter 6 to 19?????

Word, 'Gentiles' appear in book of Revelation only ONCE - Rev. 11:2. Does that mean Gentiles is excluded from Revelation chapter 6 to 19????

Word, 'Israel' appears in book of Revelation only three times - Rev. 2:14, 7:4, and 21:12. Word 'Israel' appears only ONCE in between Revelation chapter 6 to 19. Does that mean, Israel is exlcuded from Revelation chapter 6,8-19???

Word, 'Church/Churches' appear in book of Revelation - 19 times. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 4 to 19???

Aren't 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 - Church? Please look in 1 Cor. 14:33 - "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in ALLLLLL churches of the saints."

Obivous, saints are Church, Church is saints.

Word -'Saint/saints' find 40 times in the New Testament, these are so overwhelm prove that we are saints.

Word, 'Christian/Christians' find only THREE TIMES - Acts 11:26; 26:28; and 1 Peter 4:16. Does it mean, Christians are excluded from the four gospels of Matthew -John?? Does it mean, Christians are excluded fromRomans-James, 2 Peter- Revelation????

The two groups are ALREADY UNITY TOGETHER by through Calvary 2000 years ago to become into ONE BODY OF CHRIST - Eph. 12-16. Now we are no longer divided between Jews and Gentiles. We are now unity with Jews in Jesus Christ at once for forever and ever. Amen - Eph. 3:21.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Just as i was about to give
up you go and encourage me a bit

I do not believe Anything Revelation
4:1 through 19:10 shows any
Church Age born-again ransomed redeemed
Christian elect saint on the earth
(during the Tribulation Period).
Rev. 13:9-18 & Rev. 14:9-12does
not apply to us as Christians.

 

Ed,

Ok fine with me, you think Rev. 13:9-18 & Rev. 14:9-12 seem NOT important to you and Christians. You go ahead and keep on laughing at me. same with people before the flood came, that Noah warned to them about the coming flood. Once flood came, many people were shocked and stopped laugh, begging for enter the Ark. There is no more another chance for them to repentance and enter the Ark, the flood came and destroyed them all.

When the Antichrist revealed, you will be SHOCKED and will stop laugh again. Many Christians will be SHOCKED and many of them will be panic and scare, not being to be prepared for the coming persecutions. Many of their faith will be shaked, many will flee hide from Antichrist's army. Many will be killed. Even NEVER know what if any Christians might be tremble when facing police or soldier for force them to receive the mark of the beast, many of them do NOT want to die as martyrer, prefer want to stay alive will be end up deceived and go to lake of fire.

Sorry to saying it according to Luke 9:24- if any person-Christian who want to stay live and not want to die for Christ will be end up in the lake of fire - Rev. 14:9-11.

Ok fine with me. Why don't you tear Rev. 13:9-18 & Rev. 14:9-12 out of the Bible? You removed several areas out of God's Word - Rev. 22:19, that means your name might be removed from the book of life. Huh??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Noah's real name is DeafPosttrib?

 

Noah preach people for coming of Great flood and built a ark for 120 years when ark is finished God told noah and his family enter ark for coming of Great flood. 40 day and 40 night raining until filled water all over earth. all unbeliever was being take away. after Flood Noah saw diffrent not same before NO unbleiver left on earth after Great flood.

Matthew 24:37-39
same as second coming of christ. picture of day of noah.

will the church go through the tribulation?
my answer is yes please look at matthew 24:9 and matthew 24:16-21, 2 thess 1:4,6 rev 2:10,rev 3:10,rev 13:4-8 rev 12:17, john 16:33
romans 8:35-36,I thess 5:9

jbrumley
ps 27:1
amem

 

BrumleyJ: "will the church go through the tribulation?
my answer is yes please look at matthew 24:9 and matthew 24:16-21,
2 thess 1:4,6 rev 2:10,rev 3:10,rev 13:4-8
rev 12:17, john 16:33
romans 8:35-36,I thess 5:9"

My answer is "No way". Here are the passages:

Matthew 24:9 speaks of the tribulation of persecution
not the Tribulation Period.

Matthew 24:16-21 speaks of the events among the Jewish
Israeli elect saints in the second half of the
Tribulation Period called the Great Tribulation (period).

2 Thessalonains 1:4-6 speaks of the tribulation of
being persecuted for Jesus in the Church age. It does not
speak of being persecuted in the Tribulation Period.

Revelation 2-10 and 3-10 speak of the tribulation of
persecution in the Chruch Age not in the Tribualtion
Period.

Revelation 12:17 refers to the Tribulation Period.
The people spoken of there are Jewish
Israeli elect saints.

John 16:33 speaks of the tribulation of the human condition,
the tribulation of the persecuted church age saint,
the tribulation of the wandering Jew in the church age.
The Lord did not pray here for any church age born-again,
ransomed, redeemed, Christian elect saints in the Tribulation Period
or the Great Tribulation Period.

Romans 8:35-36 speaks of the tribulation of the human condition,
the tribulation of the persecuted church age saint,
the tribulation of the wandering Jew in the church age
not the Tribualtion Peiod or the Great Tribulation period.

I thess 5:9 doesn't mention tribulation???
However, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 does assure us that
we will NOT be around for the Tribulation Period (Wrath
of the Lamb, Rev 6:6) nor the Great Tribulation Period
(the undiluted wrath of God, Revelation 14:10).

Here, put this in your Pretribs deny list:

Pretrib deny that there will be any
church age born-again,
ransomed, redeemed, Christian elect saints
on the earth during the Tribulation period or
Great Tribulation period.

 

zechariah 12:12-14 there will great mourn day and spreate at judgment day and will cast them into lake of fire at second advent that is very ture and very sad.

BTW pretrib teach that jews will saved at second advent but many jews and gentiles will cast away into lake of fire at second advent.

daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever,even f or ever amd ever.

daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

NO believers were not allow live on new earth and new heaven after second advent.

dainel does not say 1000 years regin with christ.

we saints will regin with chirst forever and forever after second advent.

jbrumley
ps 27:1
amem

 

brumleyj: "zechariah 12:12-14 there will great mourn day and spreate at judgment day and will cast them into lake of fire at second advent that is very ture and very sad."

This judgement day is the Tribulation period

brumleyj: "BTW pretrib teach that jews will saved at second advent but many jews and gentiles will cast away into lake of fire at second advent."

You don't understand the pretrib teachings
enough to make a definative statement about it.
You confuse two events seperated by 1,000
years: the Judgement in Matthew 25
and the great white throne judgement in
Revelation 20.

brumleyj: "daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever,even f or ever amd ever.
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

Daniel was not even aware that Messiah
would come twice.

brumleyj: "NO believers were not allow live on new earth and new heaven after second advent."

I do not share your unbiblical opinion.

brumleyj: "dainel does not say 1000 years regin with christ."

Nary a time.
Daniel does mention the Kingdom of
God one of which is a physical reign of
Jesus, the Christ, on a literal throne
of David in a literal Hierusalem for
probably a literal 1,000 years.

brumleyj: "we saints will regin with chirst forever and forever after second advent."

Amen, Brother BrumleyJ -- Preach it
Actually we will start 7 years earlier
thank you are thinking. All you see of the
Second adventis the end when Jesus
comes to defeat antichrist (second comilng). The full
Second Advent of Jesus also includes the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection,
the Tribulation period judgement,
and the Second Advent return

 

The word "sweet potatoes" does not appear
in Revelation, does that mean there will
be nothing to eat in Revelation?
The word "velcro" doesn't appear in
Revelation but i bettcha most of the
soldiers at Harmmegeddon use that
material to hold their supplies on their
uniforms.

 

Ed,

I have to go to work tonight - 3rd shift. I will reply back to ypu tomorrow morning after work finished.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

ed edwards,

does bible saying five tribulation peroid ?

i forgot type un word add with believer because im hurry off to work second shift yesterday.

unbeliever not allow live on new earth and new heaven at second advent. i hope this will sasifty you well.

early church believe in ONE judgment and ONE tribualtion.

does bible saying we will start 7 years earlier?
please show me there is 7 years peorid from bible.

no i did not confuse matthew 25 and revealtion 20. i understand both very clear well. matthew 25 is talking rapture/ressurrection and judgement of christ revelation 20 is talking about rapture/ressurrection and judgement of christ there is no two sperate judgement at second advent

possess verv tense to have as belonging to one, have as property.

possessed adj spurred or moved

jbrumley
ps27:1
amem

 

Ed,

There is no difference between tribulations and great tribulation. Both are same definition. Bible does not promise us, that we shall escapse from tribulation. We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. Early Christians were persecuted and killed by Rome in Colossuem eaten by wild beasts. Many Christians were beheaded, killed by Catholics during Spanish Inquistion Era. There were many different kinds of tribulations, yet, these are same defintion word.

Christ does not saying, 'Jews' anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24. Christ said, 'ye', 'you' 19 times in Matt 24. Clear. Christ speak to believers both Jews and Gentiles.

Right now, many Gentiles are dwelling in Israel. Many Gentiles are dwelling in Jerusalem with Jews. Even, Christians are now dwelling in Israel with Jews. I believe Antichrist shall be revealed first with in Jerusalem. Great Tribulation shall begin in Jerusalem. Then, it shall spread over the world. Christ warns us, there will be great tribulation, no other compare with any tribulations in the past since creation to now, not ever shall be. This will be worser. Christ warns us, we do not return to our home, if we return, Antichrist's army will seek and find us, to persecute us and killed too.

Often, pretrib saying, Church does not keep sabbath - Matt 24:20. Sabbath is for Jews only. Jews only? Christs does not saying it. Christ said, "The sabbath was made for MAN, and not man for the sabbath." - Mark. 2:27. He does not saying, 'Jews'. He said, he made sabbath for people both Jews and Gentiles. Sabbath means rest. Chris warns us, our flight shall be difficult, it would not be easy for our flight. Our flight with the conditional will be rough. WE are not rest under the roof. We will stay out in the wilderness most of times. Weather - cold or hot, our flight will be tough. We shall not rest from the persecution.

You saying, Matt 24:15-21 will be in the last half of seven tribulation period. But, Christ does not saying. Right now, we are in tribulations since Early Church to today. These tribulations shall be continue through Church history to today, and it also shall be continue through great tribulation till Christ comes. Then, tribulation shall be end by Christ's coming - Matt 24:29.

The Bible does not sayin gthere shall be seven year of tribulation period anywhere in the Bibke. How about Daniel 9:24-27? Often pretrib use Dan. 9:26-27 to prove there will be seven year of tribulation period. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on Messiah and the covenant by the Calvary. We do not wait for Daniel 70th Week. It already fulfilled by Calvary 2000 years ago. Dan. 9:26-27 tell us, Christ was cut off by crucified AFTER 69th week, means he was cut off during 70th Week. He already made a new covenant with many - Mark 14:24.

The Bible telling us, great tribulation shall be 42 month, 1260 days, 'time, times, and dividing a time', 3 1/2 years.

Satan shall copy Jesus' way. Satan shall transform into man to be act like as real Messiah. He shall deceive the world for only 42 months. Because Christ was doing ministry on earth for over 3 years by follow passover three times - John 2:13, 6:4, and 13:1. Christ was cut off in the midst of the week after his three years of ministry. satan shall do the same thing to copy Christ's way for 42 months. Bible does not saying Satan will deceive the world for 84 months. He shall deceived the world for 42 months.

Ok, 2 Thess. 1:4-6 tells us, Christians are persecuting by persecutors. Christians shall NOT rest from persecution TILL "And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS."

Clear, Christians shall not rest from the persecutions TILLLLL Christ comes WITH HIS ANGELS. Obivous, Christians shall not rest from them TILLLL second coming. Then, the tribulations shall be end by Jesus Christ at his coming. He shall punish all persecutors who persecute against Christians, they shall be cast into fire in the presence of Christ and his angels - 2 Thess. 1:7-9. 2 Thess. 7-10 speaks of the only one coming of Christ, not two comings.

There is no difference between tribulations and great tribulation. Both are same definition.

Often, pretrib teaches that Rev. 3:10 is the evidence for pretrib. They saying, "KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation' means we shall be rapture from the hour of temptation. They saying, 'hour of temptation' is seven year of tribulation period. Does Christ actually saying it? No. He does not saying 'hour of temptation' is seven year of tribulation period.

Rev. 3:10 promises us, if we KEEEEEP his word, H will protect or guard us from any temptations. OR... if we do not keep His word, He will not guard us from any temptations. That means, we easily could fall into temptations by sins.

Same with 1 Cor. 10:13 tells us, God knows our weakeness of temptations, He does not allow us to face any kinds of great temptations. BUT, it tells us, we able to flee from it, while face temptations.

Good example of Joseph in Genesis 39:7-13. It tells us, Joseph faced temptation of master's wife. She persuaded him to sex with her. He refused. She kept on asking him again and again day to day. He still very stubborn. One day, she tempted him to sex, he refuses, she grabbed his garment, and he fled immediated. He did the right thing to avoid into sin. Because he fears the Lord, he do not want doing wicked thing in the Lord's sight.

John 17:15 same with Rev. 3:10. Hold that verse.

Early Church understoods what Rev. 3:10 is talking about. None of them saying on that verse is rapture. That verse talking about temptation. Rev. 3:10 is not talking about Christ desend, resurrection, caught up, second coming - nothing. Rev. 3:10 talks about God promises us, if we keep His word, He will guard us from temptations, or, if we do not keep his word, we might fall into temptations and fall into sin.

Matthew Henry said of Rev. 3:10 -

Matthew Henry tells us, it promises us, if we keep His word, we shall have peace and fruitful. We do not have to wait for the coming 'hour of tribulation' - seven year of tribulation period. Early Church already face temptations. Many Christians have been face temptations throughout their life. We are face temptations daily in our life.

Rev. 3:10 is now happening since Early Church to today, and it will be continue through great tribulation till Christ comes with his angels, then will end tribulation by Christ.

It does not saying 'Jews'. Word - 'Jews' appear only two times in Rev. 2:9 and 3:9. Does that mean Jews are excluded from Revelation 6 to 19?? Same with Gentiles. Word, 'Gentiles' find only ONCE in Revelation 11:2. Does that mean Gentiles are excluded from Revelation chapter 6 to 19??

Book of Revelation was given the message to the churches with instruction and warning.

'Woman' of Rev. 12:17 represents Christ's wife - Bride. Woman is Israel/Church. Rev. 12:6, 14 tells us, God will protect Christians in the wilderness from persecutions in his power. God does to protect Hebrews in Egypt, while God pour upon Egyptinans same time. God will doing the same thing.

Both Gentiles and Jews were already reconciled together into ONE BOD OF CHRIST by Calvary 2000 years ago - Eph. 2:12-16. No longer we are divided between Jews and Gentiles. Now we are unity together forever and ever.

Christ tells us, that we should be REJOICE while face tribulations, because Christ already overcome them - Calvary. Christ already know that his disciples shall face persecutions after his asecnd into heaven - John 15:18-20. Peter was martyred by crucifed on the cross - upside-down. Many disciples were persecuted. They kept Christ's word with rejoice. We should be always be rejoice no matter what kinds of persecutions or tribulaitons, we face. Because Christ suffered on the corss so much for us. So, we should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21. And we sshould not be ashamed as Christian - 1 Peter 4:16. If anyone of you do not want go through great tribulation and face persecution under Antichrist, then you are not worthy as Christian. You are ashamed for Christ. Where is your faith? Trust the Lord - Matt 10:28.

Christ does not saying it. You just added word unto Christ's word. - Rev. 22:18.

Christ does not asked his Father to TAKE US OUT OF WORLD (sound like as rapture), but He asked Father to guard or protect us from evil. Christ already know his disciples shall be face persecutions after his resurrection - John 15:18-20. John 17:15 sames with Rev. 3:10. Christ tells us, He shall protect us from any temptation, IF we keep His word.

Apostle Paul does not saying it. You just added of your own words - Rev. 22:18.

Again, there is NO difference between tribulations and great tribulations, both are same definition. 1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us, we are appointed for tribulations, because Christ sufferedon the cross for us - 1 Peter 2:21, so, therefore, we should follow Christ's example.

The context of Romans 8:35-39 tell us, everything cannot separate us from the love of Christ. Christ stills love Christians so much, no matter what happen to them with any kinds of situation. They are still Christ's wife. He loves them so much. Even, while Christians face persecutions and tribulations, Christ still love them. Early Christians were thrown into Colossuem, eatne by wild beasts to death, yet Christ stills lovve them.

Romans 8:35-39 do not promise us, that we shall escape from any persecutions or tribulations. We always will face Tribulations and persecutions, because Christ already overcome them - John 16:33.

Tribulation is not same as wrath. Both are different definition words. Tribulation means trials, persecution, troubles. Wrath means anger, fierce, punishment. Wrath comes from God with his angry to punish upon unbelievers for reject Jesus Christ, send them to hell.

We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. But, we are not appointed for wrath- 1 Thess. 5:9. Why? Because, we received salvation through Christ. Without have Christ, God's wrath abide on person - John 3:36.

There is NOT even one word find anywhere in the book of Revelation saying the wrath will pour down upon ONE saint. God knows how to protect or delivery saints from his wrath. Trust Him. Don't worry about the wrath. IF you keep his commandement, you will doing fine.

You use Rev. 14:10. Rev. 14:10 speaks of God's wrath punish upon all unbelievers who worship the Antichrist and received the mark of the beast, send them to lake of fire.

Rev. 14:12 tells us, that we ought to keep the commandments with our testimony and faith. If suppose any Christian do not keep the commandment, several Christians might be end up being deceived for worship the Antichrist, or received the mark of the beast, go to hell- Rev. 13:9-18 and Matt 24:24.

Yes, that's correct what I saying to you and pretribbers. Because you do not accept that Revelation give instruction and warning to us of Rev. 13:9-18 and Rev. 14:9-12 apply to us as future last generation Christians who shall face Antichrist and persecution.

The reason is, pretrib do not accept Rev. 13:9-18 & Rev. 14:9-12 apply to the Church, because of OSAS doctrine. Pretrib pastors teaching that NO Christian will lose salvation. Christians will be rapture first before tribulation period. The Bible does not saying it.

Pretrib pastors KNOW Rev. 13:9-12 and Rev. 14:9-12 is much conflict with osas doctrine. That why, they saying 'saints' is not the Church saints, we are rapture first anyway. Then, people who will miss rapture will have another chance to become saved during tribulation period.

Matt. 25:1-12 telling us about the parable of the ten virgins. When their master comes, five wise virgins already have oil with them, they are ready go to meet him, and the door shut. Then, the five foolish virgins run to the dorr, and knocking, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us,'. Christ says, "I know you NOT".

Christ warns us, there will be NO another chnace of salvation AFTER Christ comes. Same with the flood. Once flood comes, and it destroyed ALLL unbelievers away, there was NO unbeliever survive through the flood. All were killed. So, it shall be same at Lord's coming - Matt. 24:37-39.

Noah preached for 120 years to warning people about the flood. There was plenty time for people to repent and enter the Ark. But no one repent for past 120 years. So, God shut the door of Ark, and flood pour upon all unbelievers. I am no doubt, that unbelievers must have yell and knock the door of Ark, begging for open it same with Matt 25:11. There was NO chance time for unbelievers to repent once after the rain fell down after the door of Ark shut.

There shall be NO another chnace for any perosn to repent once Christ comes with his angels. MANY shall be mourn or wailing at His coming - Matt. 25:30 & Rev. 1:7.

Also, pretrib deny word, 'saints' of Rev. 13:7, 10 is the part body of Christ - Church.

1 Cor. 14:33 clear tell us, ALLLL saints are the CHURCHES.

We are the saints. Saints simple means Christians.

Yes, the Bible teaches, that we MUST GO THROUGH MUCH TRIBULATION TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD - Acts 14:22. Why cannot you accept the facts from the Bible, that we must go through tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Hey, guys, can we keep the posts a little shorter? I mean, there is no use trying to type your entire theology into every post.

I want to take part in this discussion, but the length of the posts are really just turning me away.