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Pride is a virtue in the ESV, NASB, NIV

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Will J. Kinney, Jan 29, 2004.

  1. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Getting back to the initial point of this thread, can any MVers tell us please how they reconcile those apparent contradictions in the the new versions that Will pointed out? e.g. how am I to understand:
    Thanks,

    Bartholomew
     
  2. Forever settled in heaven

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    well, one option is the KJBO approach-e.g. how they approach the contemporaneous (both 1611) He n She Bibles, which differ at Ruth 3:15.

    the KJBO answer is simple: "BOTH"! both a he n a she entered the city, one in the He bible, the other in the She bible! if u owned just one of them, u'd never know.

    ha, the same weird phenom wld happen to those who owned ONLY ONE copy of an MV [​IMG]
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    This foolishness is a brazen attack on teh word of God. The word in view, as has been pointed out, is kaukema (or cognate word), and it means to glory in or boast. The problem is that the KJV gave an interpretation rather than a translation. Had the KJV translated the word more accurately, there would have been no confusion. "Rejoice" is fine, but the words means to boast or glory in. I think we should stick with what God said rather than changing it.
     
  4. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Thanks,

    Bartholomew
    </font>[/QUOTE]Gal 6:4 το δε εργον εαυτου δοκιμαζετω εκαστος και τοτε εις εαυτον μονον το καυχημα εξει και ουκ εις τον ετερον

    The NASB and the ESV are formal equivalence translations and they both have the same meaning in this verse. The NIV is a dynamic equivalence translation and paraphrases this verse.

    If the KJVO gang would spend more time studying the Biblical languages and translation theory, and less time criticizing the knowledge of others, they would know the answer to their own questions. [​IMG]
     
  5. Forever settled in heaven

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    well, one option is the KJBO approach-e.g. how they approach the contemporaneous (both 1611) He n She Bibles, which differ at Ruth 3:15.

    the KJBO answer is simple: "BOTH"! both a he n a she entered the city, one in the He bible, the other in the She bible! if u owned just one of them, u'd never know.

    ha, the same weird phenom wld happen to those who owned ONLY ONE copy of an MV [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]woohoo, i didn't expect to find this old KJBO chestnut until reading another thread, where Quickened Something said:

    not a v high view of the Scriptures n verbal inspiration, i'd say! :( :rolleyes:
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Originally posted by Bartholomew:
    "Getting back to the initial point of this thread, can any MVers tell us please how they reconcile those apparent contradictions in the the new versions that Will pointed out? e.g. how am I to understand:"

    Hello, Bartholomew!

    Please read back a few posts where I called attention to the meanings of the Greek 'kauchesis' and its various renderings in the KJV. Or, simply look up the word in a lexicon.

    You see, Will likes to compare verses between versions, then, try to convince someone that only the KJV rendering is correct. He's often caught not being entirely forthright nor correct, as the renderings in the various versions are within the possible renderings of the original language of the mss being translated. Sometimes, it's a difference between the mss he points out, but if over 100 years of professional scholars cannot find out which ones are valid or not valid, how can Will?

    We admit that he does take a different approach than do most KJVOs in trying to find any veracity to their myth, but, same as the others, he simply cannot present any evidence that lends any credence to that myth.
     
  7. Will J. Kinney

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    Hi Timothy 1769, you posted this great verse.


    Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;


    I'm not sure of your intention, but let me explain something about the word "to glory". If you look up this word in any good dictionary you will see that it has two primary meanings.

    One is to rejoice boastfully in something, and the other is to exult or rejoice in something. The true Holy Bible (King James) never presents boasting in oneself or pride in our own accomplishments as a positive thing.

    That is because the KJB is consistently a truthful Book and pride in oneself is a sin. It is the new versions that pervert this obvious truth and now in this age of self esteem and proud confidence in oneself, present pride as a positive Christian virtue.

    If anyone still refuses to see this obvious truth and clings to his favorite comic book bible version, then let him have what he wants and suffer the consequences.

    For example, just compare the verse you quoted in the various versions. Not at all the same truths being taught in the KJB as compared to the nkjv, niv, nasb.

    Not don't go off on any wild accusations that I believe that if you use an niv, nkjv, nasb, esv, that you are headed for hell. That is not what I am saying nor do I believe this way. A person's redemption does not depend on which bible version he uses.

    But your thinking process and grasp of spiritual truths will be greatly affected in a negative way by the continued use of a modern comic book bible version.

    Thanks again for the great verse from Romans 5.

    Will
     
  8. Will J. Kinney

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    Craig wrote: "Thank you for reply to my post. There is nothing pious or baloneyous about what I wrote—only undeniable truth. The KJV is a TRANSLATION of the word of God. It is not possible to translate a work containing almost 800,000 words written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek into English without some losses and changes of meaning. Rather than worship a 400 year old translation, I study the REAL THING."

    Hi Craig. I like your use of the word baloneyous. I got a chuckle out of that. Thanks.

    Craig, I have seen some of your posts. You still didn't answer my questions about which Hebrew and which Greek texts you consider to be "the real thing".

    You actually have answered nothing but given us more pious sounding rhetoric.

    By the way, what do you think of the nasb, niv, esv, rsv,etc. when they all and in different places reject the Hebrew readings for some other source? What is the "real thing" then?

    You apparently are also under the seminarian's misguided delusion that no translation can be the inspired words of God. Where did you get THAT idea from? Certainly not from the Bible. Chapter and verse, please.

    Rather the Holy Bible teaches quite clearly that a translation can be the inspired words of God. Now, Craig, whose position is more Biblical, yours or the KJB believer?

    Here is an article I wrote about this very subject.


    http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/transinsp.html

    Check it out and get back to us about the exact nature of "the real thing" you are referring to.

    Thanks,

    Will
     
  9. Will J. Kinney

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    Great question Bartholomew! I too would like very much for one of our "all versions are inspired" friends to explain how to reconcile these different renderings. Thanks for noticing the original intent of this discussion :)

    God bless


    Getting back to the initial point of this thread, can any MVers tell us please how they reconcile those apparent contradictions in the the new versions that Will pointed out? e.g. how am I to understand:

    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone". This is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, the NKJV, Webster's, and the Third Millenium Bible, to name a few.


    However the NASB says "he will have REASON FOR BOASTING in regard TO himself"; NIV "he can TAKE PRIDE IN HIMSELF", and the ESV says: "then his REASON TO BOAST WILL BE IN HIMSELF ALONE."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks,
    Bartholomew
     
  10. Will J. Kinney

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    Larry posts: "This foolishness is a brazen attack on teh word of God. The word in view, as has been pointed out, is kaukema (or cognate word), and it means to glory in or boast. The problem is that the KJV gave an interpretation rather than a translation. Had the KJV translated the word more accurately, there would have been no confusion. "Rejoice" is fine, but the words means to boast or glory in. I think we should stick with what God said rather than changing it. "

    Larry, I personally have a very low opinion of your spiritual understanding and position on the preservation of God's words. Of course I don't expect this to mean much to you, and that is fine.

    But you have hit rock bottom in my estimation and have started to dig even further.

    That you would defend the exaltation of pride in self and criticise the true words of God and the only legitimate meaning as found in the KJB, indicates to me that you have reached a new level of incompetence.

    Did I say that nicely enough?

    Will K
     
  11. Will J. Kinney

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    Craig posts: " posted January 31, 2004 04:47 PM                       
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Bartholomew:
    Getting back to the initial point of this thread, can any MVers tell us please how they reconcile those apparent contradictions in the the new versions that Will pointed out? e.g. how am I to understand:

    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone". This is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, the NKJV, Webster's, and the Third Millenium Bible, to name a few.
    However the NASB says "he will have REASON FOR BOASTING in regard TO himself"; NIV "he can TAKE PRIDE IN HIMSELF", and the ESV says: "then his REASON TO BOAST WILL BE IN HIMSELF ALONE."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks,
    Bartholomew
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gal 6:4 to de ergon eautou dokimazetw ekastoV kai tote eiV eauton monon to kauchma exei kai ouk eiV ton eteron
    The NASB and the ESV are formal equivalence translations and they both have the same meaning in this verse. The NIV is a dynamic equivalence translation and paraphrases this verse.
    If the KJVO gang would spend more time studying the Biblical languages and translation theory, and less time criticizing the knowledge of others, they would know the answer to their own questions. "

    Craig, that was a masterful stroke of obfuscation and avoidance. Congrats. Great job. You ARE a seminarian, aren't you.

    Will K
     
  12. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Will,

    What part of my post did you not understand? :confused:
     
  13. Orvie

    Orvie New Member

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    Willie, Have you ever thought about starting a cult? PASTOR Larry responded with the language the KJ VERSION was based upon and did the very same thing the KJV translators did, give interpretation. Sadly, you seem to start with the false premise that the translation is the final authority, and built your beliefs from there. Error begats error. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The part between the "quote" button and the "Posts"
    count. ;)

    BTW, one can probably find out if
    Craigbythesea is a seminary person
    by clicking on "profile".
    ... Oops, my bad, you cannot find
    outf that way.
     
  15. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Tuseme nini basi? Je, twendelee kubaki katika dhambi ili neema ya Mungu iongezeke? :confused: Hata kidogo! Kuhusu dhambi sisi tumekufa--tutaendeleaje kuishi tena katika dhambi? :confused: Maana, mnajua kwamba sisi tuliobatizwa tukaungana na Kristo Yesu, tulibatizwa na kuungana na kifo chake. Tulipobatizwa tuliungana na kifo chake, tukazikwa pamoja naye, ili kama vile Kristo alivyofufuliwa kutoka wafu kwa kitendo kitukufu cha Baba, sisi pia tuweze kuishi maisha mapya. [​IMG] Maana, kama sisi tumeungana naye katika kufa kama yeye, vivyo hivyo tutaungana naye kwa kufufuliwa kutoka wafu kama yeye. Tunajua kwamba utu wetu wa kale ulisulubiwa pamoja na Kristo, ili hali ya dhambi iharibiwe, tusiwe tena watumwa wa dhambi. Kwa maana, mtu aliyekufa, amenasuliwa kutoka katika nguvu ya dhambi. Basi, ikiwa tumekufa pamoja na Kristo, tunaamini kwamba tutaishi pia pamoja naye. Maana, tunajua kwamba Kristo amekwisha fufuliwa kutoka wafu na hafi tena; kifo hakimtawali tena. Hivyo, kwa kuwa alikufa--mara moja tu--dhambi haina nguvu tena juu yake; na sasa anaishi maisha yake katika umoja na Mungu. Hali kadhalika nanyi lazima mjione kuwa mmekufa kuhusu dhambi, lakini kama mnaoishi katika umoja na Mungu kwa njia ya Kristo Yesu. Kwa hiyo, dhambi isiitawale tena miili yenu ambayo hufa, na hivyo kuzitii tamaa zake. Wala msitoe hata sehemu moja ya miili yenu iwe chombo cha kutenda uovu na dhambi. Badala yake, jitoleeni ninyi wenyewe kwa Mungu kama watu waliofufuliwa kutoka wafu; toeni nafsi zenu zote kwa Mungu kwa ajili ya uadilifu. Maana, dhambi haitawatawala ninyi tena, kwani hamko chini ya Sheria, bali chini ya neema. Basi, tuseme nini? Je, tutende dhambi ati kwa sababu hatuko chini ya Sheria bali chini ya neema? Hata kidogo! Mnajua kwamba mkijitolea ninyi wenyewe kama watumwa na kumtii fulani, mnakuwa kweli watumwa wake mtu huyo--au watumwa wa dhambi, na matokeo yake ni kifo, au wa utii, na matokeo yake ni kukubaliwa kuwa waadilifu. Ingawa mlikuwa watumwa wa dhambi zamani, sasa lakini--namshukuru Mungu--mmetii kwa moyo wote yale maazimio na mafundisho mliyopokea. Mlikombolewa kutoka utumwa wa dhambi, mkawa watumwa wa uadilifu. (Hapa natumia lugha ya kawaida ya watu kwa sababu ya udhaifu wenu wenyewe.) Kama vile wakati fulani mlivyojitolea ninyi wenyewe kutumikia uchafu na uhalifu kwa ajili ya uovu, vivyo hivyo sasa jitoleeni nafsi zenu wenyewe kutumikia uadilifu kwa ajili ya utakatifu. Mlipokuwa watumwa wa dhambi, mlikuwa huru mbali na uadilifu. Sasa, mlipata faida gani siku zile kutokana na mambo yale ambayo mnayaonea aibu sasa? Maana, matokeo ya mambo haya ni kifo! Lakini sasa, mmekwisha kombolewa kutoka utumwa wa dhambi na mmekuwa watumishi wa Mungu; faida mliyo nayo sasa ni utakatifu, na matokeo yake ni uzima wa milele. Kwa maana mshahara wa dhambi ni kifo; lakini zawadi anayotoa Mungu ni uzima wa milele katika kuungana na Kristo Yesu, Bwana wetu.
     
  16. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Tuseme nini basi? Je, twendelee kubaki katika dhambi ili neema ya Mungu iongezeke? :confused: Hata kidogo! Kuhusu dhambi sisi tumekufa--tutaendeleaje kuishi tena katika dhambi? :confused: Maana, mnajua kwamba sisi tuliobatizwa tukaungana na Kristo Yesu, tulibatizwa na kuungana na kifo chake. Tulipobatizwa tuliungana na kifo chake, tukazikwa pamoja naye, ili kama vile Kristo alivyofufuliwa kutoka wafu kwa kitendo kitukufu cha Baba, sisi pia tuweze kuishi maisha mapya. [​IMG] Maana, kama sisi tumeungana naye katika kufa kama yeye, vivyo hivyo tutaungana naye kwa kufufuliwa kutoka wafu kama yeye. Tunajua kwamba utu wetu wa kale ulisulubiwa pamoja na Kristo, ili hali ya dhambi iharibiwe, tusiwe tena watumwa wa dhambi. Kwa maana, mtu aliyekufa, amenasuliwa kutoka katika nguvu ya dhambi. Basi, ikiwa tumekufa pamoja na Kristo, tunaamini kwamba tutaishi pia pamoja naye. Maana, tunajua kwamba Kristo amekwisha fufuliwa kutoka wafu na hafi tena; kifo hakimtawali tena. Hivyo, kwa kuwa alikufa--mara moja tu--dhambi haina nguvu tena juu yake; na sasa anaishi maisha yake katika umoja na Mungu. Hali kadhalika nanyi lazima mjione kuwa mmekufa kuhusu dhambi, lakini kama mnaoishi katika umoja na Mungu kwa njia ya Kristo Yesu. Kwa hiyo, dhambi isiitawale tena miili yenu ambayo hufa, na hivyo kuzitii tamaa zake. Wala msitoe hata sehemu moja ya miili yenu iwe chombo cha kutenda uovu na dhambi. Badala yake, jitoleeni ninyi wenyewe kwa Mungu kama watu waliofufuliwa kutoka wafu; toeni nafsi zenu zote kwa Mungu kwa ajili ya uadilifu. Maana, dhambi haitawatawala ninyi tena, kwani hamko chini ya Sheria, bali chini ya neema. Basi, tuseme nini? Je, tutende dhambi ati kwa sababu hatuko chini ya Sheria bali chini ya neema? Hata kidogo! Mnajua kwamba mkijitolea ninyi wenyewe kama watumwa na kumtii fulani, mnakuwa kweli watumwa wake mtu huyo--au watumwa wa dhambi, na matokeo yake ni kifo, au wa utii, na matokeo yake ni kukubaliwa kuwa waadilifu. Ingawa mlikuwa watumwa wa dhambi zamani, sasa lakini--namshukuru Mungu--mmetii kwa moyo wote yale maazimio na mafundisho mliyopokea. Mlikombolewa kutoka utumwa wa dhambi, mkawa watumwa wa uadilifu. (Hapa natumia lugha ya kawaida ya watu kwa sababu ya udhaifu wenu wenyewe.) Kama vile wakati fulani mlivyojitolea ninyi wenyewe kutumikia uchafu na uhalifu kwa ajili ya uovu, vivyo hivyo sasa jitoleeni nafsi zenu wenyewe kutumikia uadilifu kwa ajili ya utakatifu. Mlipokuwa watumwa wa dhambi, mlikuwa huru mbali na uadilifu. Sasa, mlipata faida gani siku zile kutokana na mambo yale ambayo mnayaonea aibu sasa? Maana, matokeo ya mambo haya ni kifo! Lakini sasa, mmekwisha kombolewa kutoka utumwa wa dhambi na mmekuwa watumishi wa Mungu; faida mliyo nayo sasa ni utakatifu, na matokeo yake ni uzima wa milele. Kwa maana mshahara wa dhambi ni kifo; lakini zawadi anayotoa Mungu ni uzima wa milele katika kuungana na Kristo Yesu, Bwana wetu. </font>[/QUOTE]Ooh! Ohh! [​IMG]

    Is it Romans 6 in Swahili?
     
  17. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Scott,

    Yes, it is. [​IMG] I decided to quit using big words and say what I mean in plain Swahili. :D
     
  18. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Thank you for those who tried to answer my question.

    However, I think you misunderstood it. I was not asking how you think the Greek word should be translated, but how you reconcile the apparent contradictions in the MVs that Will pointed out in the first post. For example, in the NIV it says:

    "To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech." (Prov 8:13)

    "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom." (Prov 11:2)

    "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." (Prov 16:18)


    Will showed us these verses in first post, pointing out that boasting in ourselves is condemned in scripture. However, he also showed us Galations 6:4, which in the NIV says:

    "Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else" (Gal 6:4)

    Now, this not only seems to be saying that it can be good to take pride in oneself, but seems to directly contradict the previous passages. It appears there is a contradiction in the NIV. If you agree that there is, then Will's point would appear to stand, and you should applaud him for showing us this error in a popular Bible version. However, if this is not a contradiction, I would like someone to reconcile the verses, please. I am not here for an argument - I am just interested to hear your answers.

    Thank you for your time,

    Bartholomew [​IMG]
     
  19. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Bartholomew wrote,

    Prov. 8:13. "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate. (NASB)

    Prov. 16:18. Pride {goes} before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling. (NASB)

    Gal. 6:4. But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have {reason for} boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. (NASB)

    Gal. 6:4. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, (NIV)

    First of all, we can see from the context of the word “pride” in this verse that it makes more sense than does “rejoice” as translated in the KJV. Furthermore, it is a more accurate translation from the Greek New Testament. Since we know that the Greek New Testament does not contradict itself or the Old Testament, we know that there is no contradiction in this accurate translation. Both Proverbs and Galatians shed light on God’s attitude toward pride. Arrogance is a sin; :( healthy self-respect is NOT a sin. [​IMG] But again, we talking about the translation into English of a Greek word that God used to express to us one of His concepts. Both English and Greek are man-made languages and we can not expect either one of them to perfectly express to fallible man the mind of infallible God.

    Will is so caught up in hate for contemporary translations of the Bible that he is having a ridiculous amount of difficulty understanding the word of God. If Will would confess that hate and allow God to work in his heart to remove that hate, he could begin to learn what God wants to teach him through contemporary translations of His word. [​IMG]
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Craigbythesea: "Both English and Greek are man-made languages
    and we can not expect either one of them to perfectly express
    to fallible man the mind of infallible God."

    Amen, Brother Craigbythesea -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    You can say that as many times here as you wish.
     
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