1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Private interpretation of prophecy relating to Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Covenanter, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, actually, ancient Israel was never great. it got off to a good start in that direction under Solomon, but when Solly blew it, most Israelis followed Jeroboam in idol worship, and Rehoboam in Judah was not idol-free himself. They never came close to occupying ALL the Promised land.
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Remember, the Palestinians are largely the descendants of the ancient Philistines, Israel's old enemy. (Palestinian is Latin for Philistine! Look that up for yourself if ya don't believe me!)

    And "Godless mob" or not, modern Israel is a JEWISH nation.They are what they are because God has not yet taken over them.
     
  3. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    22,050
    Likes Received:
    1,857
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Josh McDowell said that the Arabs probably killed off all non-Arabs 1400 years ago in the jihad to take the Arabian peninsula. The Phillistines were Greeks from the islands of the Aegean Sea. I think the jihadists in Gaza are Arabs but maybe someone has done DNA on them.
     
  4. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    526
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All these are people to whom the Gospel is directed, none are exempt. And believers of all ethnicities become one redeemed people of God in Christ. See Eph. 2, Gal. 3. In Romans 11, grafted in Gentiles & regrafted Jews are counted as all Israel & are saved by the deliverer. Romans 15 confirms that.

    John b, Jesus & his Apostles make it absolutely clear that the New Covenant Gospel centres on Christ & not Israel as a nation. In fact vast numbers of first century Jews did respond to the Gospel & formed the New Covenant church which soon incorporated Gentiles without circumcision.

    There is nothing in the NC Scriptures to even suggest a reestablishment of Israel as a nation, & the present nation calling itself Israel shows no signs of being the godly fulfilment of OC prophecy.

    Rom. 15:7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:
    ‘Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
    I will sing the praises of your name.’
    10 Again, it says,
    ‘Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.’
    11 And again,
    ‘Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
    let all the peoples extol him.’
    12 And again, Isaiah says,
    ‘The Root of Jesse will spring up,
    one who will arise to rule over the nations;
    in him the Gentiles will hope.’
    13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,998
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. “(Galatians 3:26-29)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    One woul still be male/female/jew/Gentile in the physical sense, as that passage refers to their spiritual condition now!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    However, it appears the Pals in the "Promised Land" were absorbed by the Arabs, as the Jebusites were absorbed by the Jews. But God still likely considers them to be Philistines; thus the emnity between them & Judah for now. Remember Zechariah's prophecy concerning them, that at least one of them will betray his people to Judah, & will be greatly honored for doing so. They will become "as Jebusites", that is, be absorbed into Judah.

    (A partial fulfillment came when some Palestinian aided Israel in assassination a Pal leader with a cell phone bomb. Those gents are held in high esteem by the Jews.)
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You still ignore Ezekiel 27 where God says He will revive & restore the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. This is NOT referring to gentile Christians, but to LITERAL ISRAELIS, including the Jews.

    When are some of you gents gonna cease reducing some obviously-literal Scriptures to "symbolic" status to try to fit them into some man-made false doctrine?????????
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Still wondering when Ezekiel 37-38 was fulfilled!
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This verse doesnt negate the Abrahamic, Palestinian, and Davidic covenants.
     
  11. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    526
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you folk actually study the Scriptures you cite?

    Not relevant to the Gospel - & note in the following chapter -
    Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
    24 These things are being taken figuratively: the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: this is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother
    unbelieving Jews are considered children of Hagar, & Scripture says -
    30 But what does Scripture say? ‘Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.’ 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.


    The is private interpretation. I understand the Jebusites were allowed to continue as servants to the Israelites, but I can't see the specific prophecies. Please quote the Scriptures you are referring to.

    Ezekiel 27 is all about the judgment of Tyre. It is extreme "private interpretation" to completely rewrite Scripture without any precedent in the NC Scriptures.

    See my post #3 in this thread. Please read the passage you quote.

    The covenants are continuing in Jesus & the New Covenant through the Gospel, & will ultimately be perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE.

    Remember that Acts records that many thousands of Israel did indeed welcome their Messiah through the Gospel, & formed the church which soon included believing Gentiles.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pauls point is that there were saved and lost Jews within Israel, and the saved ones, along with the gentiles, made up spiritual Israel. Does NOT mean they ceased to be jewish, nor that God was finished dealing with national israel though!
     
  13. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    526
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please read & consider my previous reply -

    Not relevant to the Gospel - & note in the following chapter -
    Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
    24 These things are being taken figuratively: the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: this is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother
    unbelieving Jews are considered children of Hagar, & Scripture says -
    30 But what does Scripture say? ‘Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.’ 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Typo. My bad.

    I meant Eze. 37
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hagar's descendants became the Ishmaelites, today's Arabs. They were blessed at Abraham's prayer, but Isaac received the greater blessing as his descendants became Israel and Jesus' human ancestors.
     
  16. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    526
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Complain to Paul about his "misunderstanding" in Gal. 4. I simply quoted him. We need to be guided by the Apostles in their interpretation of Scripture.

    As you repeated Eze. 27, I thought you meant it. Y1 keeps referring to Eze. 37-38, which I suspect is a typo for 36-37. My post #3 covered that briefly. I doubt if he meant the Gog & Magog prophecy.

    These chapters are indeed wonderful promises of a perfect resettlement of the promised land, in an eternal situation. We're still waiting, as the NC prophets look forward to the NH&NE. Neither the present occupation of the area, nor even a future millennium, ending as it does with worldwide rebellion, satisfy the terms of the prophecy.

    Ezekiel was prophesying to the exiles in Babylon. In 37:11 we see what they were thinking -
    11 Then he said to me: ‘Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, “Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.

    So God gives Ezekiel the "dry bones" vision. Both chapters have much figurative language. In 37 it is explained in terms of the despair of the exiles - the promise of their return after 70 years. We can note that after the captivity of the northern kingdom, there was still a remnant of those tribes loyal to the Judah kingdom of Josiah -
    2 Chr. 34:9 And when they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites that kept the doors had gathered of the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, and of all the remnant of Israel, and of all Judah and Benjamin; and they returned to Jerusalem.

    So God gives Ezekiel a further vision of the 2 sticks - Judah & Joseph - become one. The exiles will indeed return to the land after 70 years, in accordance with the word to Jeremiah. After double the time in the wilderness - Isaiah 40:2.

    The concluding verses of the chapter are quoted in Rev. 21 in terms of the NH&NE.
    Eze. 37:24 ‘“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there for ever, and David my servant will be their prince for ever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them for ever.”’

    Rev. 21:1 Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death” or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.’
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, ‘I am making everything new!’ Then he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’
    6 He said to me: ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
    .......
    22:16 ‘I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.’
    17 The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

    Sadly the return ordered by Cyrus wasn't all they hoped for - God had told them through Daniel that the 70 years would be followed by 69x7 years before Messiah would come. In the middle of the final period of 7 years, Jesus was crucified, shedding the blood of the New Covenant that opened the way for full salvation for all who repented & were baptised in the name of Jesus. Many thousands of Israel welcomed the Gospel & recognised Jesus as the promised Davidic King. Palm Sunday & Pentecost.

    Now we are in a time of God's calling & patience as sinners from all nations are saved by the Gospel & look forward to King Jesus to return for resurrection & judgment, & to establish the NH&NE. 2 Peter 3.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist

    God said He'd re-establish the WHOLE House of Israel, and He's already begun with Judah, modern Israel. But obviously, he hasn't yet re-established the other tribes.

    The re-establishment of judah is quite-obvious and literal, of course, and there's no valid reason to believe His re-establishment of the other tribes won't be just-as-literal.

    Seems YOU are making a private interp of prophecies concerning Israel. Mens' fave method of doing that is to reduce certain Scriptures to "symbolic" status so those men can apply them any way they choose.
     
  18. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    526
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I gave you a reasoned Scriptural interpretation of Eze. 37 noting the context, the inspired historical record, the way the immediate fulfilment was in the return, & the saving work of Jesus & the Gospel record in Acts where many thousands of Israelites from all around the area responded to their Messiah. Further, I showed the perfect fulfiment in the NH&NE.

    All you can do is assert your private opinions without even an attempt to interpret Scripture.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Israel as a nation would be reborn and restored to God, has not happened yet.
     
  20. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    526
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are posting what amounts to PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS with no basis in Scripture. Note that Peter in 2 Peter 1 writes of the LORD Jesus as the fulfilment of prophecy before warning against private interpretation.

    Instead YOU are giving FALSE teaching which Peter warns against in the next verse -
    But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies....

    Israel certainly was reborn on the day of Pentecost - READ ACTS. Only those who rejected their Messiah perished.

    The whole idea of the nation calling itself "Israel" being the fulfilment of prophecy is the American evangelical GOLDEN CALF.
     
Loading...