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Problems denying infant baptism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Taufgesinnter, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Christ Calls All to Baptism

    Although Fundamentalists are the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists ("re-baptizers") echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).

    More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).

    Now Fundamentalists say this event does not apply to young children or infants since it implies the children to which Christ was referring were able to approach him on their own. (Older translations have, "Suffer the little children to come unto me," which seems to suggest they could do so under their own power.) Fundamentalists conclude the passage refers only to children old enough to walk, and, presumably, capable of sinning. But the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious
    decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?
     
  2. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    In Place of Circumcision

    Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

    This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.
     
  3. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Were Only Adults Baptized?

    Fundamentalists are reluctant to admit that the Bible nowhere says baptism is to be restricted to adults, but when pressed, they will. They just conclude that is what it should be taken as meaning, even if the text does not explicitly support such a view. Naturally enough, the people whose baptisms we read about in Scripture (and few are individually identified) are adults, because they were converted as adults. This makes sense, because Christianity was just beginning—there were no "cradle Christians," people brought up from childhood in Christian homes.

    Even in the books of the New Testament that were written later in the first century, during the time when children were raised in the first Christian homes, we never—not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a "decision for Christ." Rather, it is always assumed that the children of Christian homes are already Christians, that they have already been "baptized into Christ" (Rom. 6:3). If infant baptism were not the rule, then we should have references to the children of Christian parents joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason, and there are no such records in the Bible.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Peter directs us away from thinking of the "magic waters of baptism"! INSTEAD of a "magic sacrament" the REAL saving aspect is in the heart's knowing - deliberate - active "APPEAL to God for a good conscience". THAT is the sense in which baptism saves for it is a public symbol that the sinner has already made that “appeal to God for a clean conscience”.
     
  5. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Specific Biblical References?

    But, one might ask, does the Bible ever say that infants or young children can be baptized? The indications are clear. In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).

    In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.

    Granted, we do not know the exact age of the children; they may have been past the age of reason, rather than infants. Then again, they could have been babes in arms. More probably, there were both younger and older children. Certainly there were children younger than the age of reason in some of the households that were baptized, especially if one considers that society at this time had no reliable form of birth control. Furthermore, given the New Testament pattern of household baptism, if there were to be exceptions to this rule (such as infants), they would be explicit.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. IN Romans 2 we are told that "Circumcsion is of the heart by the Holy Spirit" we are not told "circumcision is baptism".

    #2. even the RCC admits that the first century church did not practice infant baptism.

    From Catholic Digest (Parenthesis mine in the quotes below) from the June 1999 article. Article by Bill Dodds begins on page 42 and is titled “Baptism Comes Full Circle”. (Page 42 is just a picture of an infant being sprinkled – so no actual words on that page).

    Please see www.catholicdigest.org for the full article that hints to the changes that have evolved over time.

    Quote:
    Page 43
    "Tacking on a little here and dropping a bit there has never altered the essence of the sacrament itself, but by the middle ages, the rite had evolved into something very different from that used by the early Christians
    ".


    Pg 44

    "go into the world and proclaim the gospel...whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. The new testament does not tell us how the apostles baptized, but, church historians say, most likely a candidate stood in a river or public bath and water was poured over his or her head. The person was asked : do you believe in the father? Do you believe in the son? Do you believe in the spirit? With each "yes" the candidate was immersed.

    Justin Martyr (100-165) offered a bare-bones description:"

    "the candidate prays and fasts "-
    "the church community prays and fasts with him"
    "the candidate enters the water"
    "the minister asks him the three Trinitarian questions"

    "the candidate now is introduced into the assembly"




    pg 45

    "half a century later the writer Tertullian gave a few more details. He talked about an anointing, a signing of the cross and an outstretched hand over the candidate. For those first centuries after Christ, the steps required to become baptized were not taken lightly. Often, they led to martyrdom"

    "
    a candidate needed a sponsor, a member of the Christian community who could vouch for him or her. It was the sponsor who went to the bishop and testified that this was a good person. Then for years the sponsor worked, prayed, and fasted with the protégé until the baptism
    "

    <>

    "
    at that time, the catechumenate (coming from the greek word for instruction) had two parts. The first, a period of spiritual preparation, lasted about three years. The second began at the start of lent and included the routine of prayers, fasting, scrutinies and exorcisms. (daily exorcisms didn't mean the candidate was possessed by the devil. Rather, he or she was in the grip of sin. The exorcisms were designed to help the individual break free)."

    "N
    ext the candidate was brought before the bishop and the presbyters (elders), while the sponsor was questioned. If the sponsor could state the candidate had no serious vices - then the bishop wrote the candidates name in the baptismal registry. More than a mere formality, this meant the candidate could be arrested or even killed if the "book of life" fell into the wrong hands
    "

    "
    it was only gradually that the candidate was permitted to hear the creed or the our father. (and he or she was expected to memorize them and recite them for the bishop and the congregation
    )."

    <>

    "
    after the new Christians emerged from the water and were dried off, they were clothed in linen robes, which they would wear until the following Sunday. Each new member of the community would then be handed a lighted candle and given the kiss of peace
    "

    <>
    "
    often it was seen as the final trump card, to be played on one's deathbed, thus assuring a heavenly reward
    "


    "
    it's important to keep in mind that the doctrine of baptism developed (evolved) over time. It was not easy, for instance, determining what to do with those who seriously sinned after baptism
    " pg 47

    "
    coupled with that was the role of infant baptism. (Catholic) scholars assume that when the 'whole households' were baptized, it included children, even very young ones
    "

    "
    but again [quote]

    it was the development of the doctrine, such as st. Augustine's description of original sin in the fifth century that eventually made infant baptism predominant. At that point
    (
    read change
    ),
    baptism was no longer seen as the beginning of moral life, but (it became viewed) a guarantee of accpetance into heaven after death
    .


    "
    in the early (dark ages) middle ages when entire tribes in northern Europe were being converted, the whole clan was
    baptized if the chief chose to be...by the end of the eighth century, what before had taken weeks (of preparation and process by
    non infants) had been greatly abridged. Children
    received three exorcisms on the sundays before easter, and on holy
    saturday;..youngsters were immersed three times.
    "

    "
    the rite was further abridged when the tradition of child or infant receiving communion at baptism fell into disfavor.

    "
    and because baptism was now viewed as essential for acceptance into heaven, the church offered a shorter "emergency"
    rite for infants in danger of death. By the beginning of the 11th century, some bishops and councils pointed out that infants
    were always in danger of sudden death and began to encourage parents not to wait until holy Saturday ceremony
    "

    <>

    [/quote]
     
  7. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Christian From the First

    The present Christian attitude does not accords perfectly with early Christian practices. Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that "according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants" (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]). The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, "The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
     
  8. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    No Cry of "Invention!"

    None of the Fathers or councils of the Church was claiming that the practice was contrary to Scripture or tradition. They agreed that the practice of baptizing infants was the customary and appropriate practice since the days of the early Church; the only uncertainty seemed to be when—exactly—an infant should be baptized. Further evidence that infant baptism was the accepted practice in the early Church is the fact that if infant baptism had been opposed to the religious practices of the first believers, why do we have no record of early Christian writers condemning it?

    But Fundamentalists try to ignore the historical writings from the early Church which clearly indicate the legitimacy of infant baptism. They attempt to sidestep appeals to history by saying baptism requires faith and, since children are incapable of having faith, they cannot be baptized. It is true that Christ prescribed instruction and actual faith for adult converts (Matt. 28:19–20), but his general law on the necessity of baptism (John 3:5) puts no restriction on the subjects of baptism. Although infants are included in the law he establishes, requirements of that law that are impossible to meet because of their age are not applicable to them. They cannot be expected to be instructed and have faith when they are incapable of receiving instruction or manifesting faith. The same was true of circumcision; faith in the Lord was necessary for an adult convert to receive it, but it was not necessary for the children of believers.

    Furthermore, the Bible never says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation except for infants"; it simply says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation." Yet Fundamentalists must admit there is an exception for infants unless they wish to condemn instantaneously all infants to hell. Therefore, the Fundamentalist himself makes an exception for infants regarding the necessity of faith for salvation. He can thus scarcely criticize the Catholic for making the exact same exception for baptism, especially if, as Catholics believe, baptism is an instrument of salvation.

    It becomes apparent, then, that the Fundamentalist position on infant baptism is not really a consequence of the Bible’s strictures, but of the demands of Fundamentalism’s idea of salvation. In reality, the Bible indicates that infants are to be baptized, that they too are meant to inherit the kingdom of heaven. Further, the witness of the earliest Christian practices and writings must once and for all silence those who criticize the Catholic Church’s teaching on infant baptism. The Catholic Church is merely continuing the tradition established by the first Christians, who heeded the words of Christ: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16).
     
  9. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Early Teachings on Infant Baptism

    Although many Protestant traditions baptize babies, Baptists—and "Bible churches" in the Baptist tradition—insist that baptism is only for those who have come to faith. Nowhere in the New Testament, they point out, do we read of infants being baptized.

    On the other hand, nowhere do we read of children raised in believing households reaching the age of reason and then being baptized. The only explicit baptism accounts in the Bible involve converts from Judaism or paganism. For children of believers there is no explicit mention of baptism—either in infancy or later.

    This poses a problem for Baptists and Bible Christians: On what basis do they require children of believers to be baptized at all? Given the silence of the New Testament, why not assume Christian baptism is only for adult converts?

    This, of course, would be contrary to historical Christian practice. But so is rejecting infant baptism. As we will see, there is no doubt that the early Church practiced infant baptism; and no Christian objections to this practice were ever voiced until the Reformation.

    The New Testament itself, while it does not explicitly say when (or whether) believers should have their children baptized, is not silent on the subject.

    Luke 18:15–16 tells us that "they were bringing even infants" to Jesus; and he himself related this to the kingdom of God: "Let the children come to me
    . . . for to such belongs the kingdom of God."

    When Baptists speak of "bringing someone to Jesus," they mean leading him to faith. But Jesus says "even infants" can be "brought" to him. Even Baptists don’t claim their practice of "dedicating" babies does this. The fact is, the Bible gives us no way of bringing anyone to Jesus apart from baptism.

    Thus Peter declared, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children" (Acts 2:38–39).

    The apostolic Church baptized whole "households" (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16), a term encompassing children and infants as well as servants. While these texts do not specifically mention—nor exclude—infants, the very use of the term "households" indicates an understanding of the family as a unit. Even one believing parent in a household makes the children and even the unbelieving spouse "holy" (1 Cor. 7:14).

    Does this mean unbelieving spouses should be baptized? Of course not. The kingdom of God is not theirs; they cannot be "brought to Christ" in their unbelief. But infants have no such impediment. The kingdom is theirs, Jesus says, and they should be brought to him; and this means baptism.

    Baptism is the Christian equivalent of circumcision, or "the circumcision of Christ": "In him you were also circumcised with . . . the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (Col. 2:11–12). Thus, like circumcision, baptism can be given to children as well as adults. The difference is that circumcision was powerless to save (Gal. 5:6, 6:15), but "aptism . . . now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21).

    The first explicit evidence of children of believing households being baptized comes from the early Church—where infant baptism was uniformly
    upheld and regarded as apostolic. In fact, the only reported controversy on the subject was a third-century debate whether or not to delay baptism until the eighth day after birth, like its Old Testament equivalent, circumcision! (See quotation from Cyprian, below; compare Leviticus 12:2–3.)

    Consider, too, that Fathers raised in Christian homes (such as Irenaeus) would hardly have upheld infant baptism as apostolic if their own baptisms had been deferred until the age of reason.

    For example, infant baptism is assumed in Irenaeus’ writings below (since he affirms both that regeneration happens in baptism, and also that Jesus came so even infants could be regenerated). Since he was born in a Christian home in Smyrna around the year 140, this means he was probably baptized around 140. He was also probably baptized by the bishop of Smyrna at that time—Polycarp, a personal disciple of the apostle John, who had died only a few decades before.
     
  10. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Early Teachings on Infant Baptism

    Irenaeus


    "He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

    "‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

    Hippolytus


    "Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

    Origen


    "Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

    "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

    Cyprian of Carthage


    "As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

    "If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (ibid., 64:5).

    Gregory of Nazianz


    "Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

    "‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated" (ibid., 40:28).

    John Chrysostom


    "You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

    Augustine


    "What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

    "The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

    "Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born" (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).

    "By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

    Council of Carthage V


    "Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [North African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians" (Canon 7 [A.D. 401]).

    Council of Mileum II


    "[W]hoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration . . . let him be anathema [excommunicated]. Since what the apostle [Paul] says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration" (Canon 3 [A.D. 416]).
     
  11. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known Member
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    Very interesting posts --- thanks.

    Don't forget, when Paul and the Ethiopian eunuch came to Christ, the Scriptures don't mention their households being baptized. Oops, never mind.
     
  12. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    Mythological history

    Aside for a moment from the issue of our teaching for doctrines the commandments of the apostles, or from your confusing salvation with justification, where on earth can you cite any reputable and accurate history book that says, "Millions of defenders of 'the Faith once for all delivered to the saints' were martyred during the Dark Ages--refusing to baptize their infants"? Even if some few had departed from the original apostolic faith and started refusing to baptize infants, there is no record I know of--and I am a historian--of such a number of Christian martyrs during the medieval period. So please cite a scholarly source.

    P.S. The Church in the East has been baptizing--trine immersing--babies for nearly 2000 years, not sprinkling them.
     
  13. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    I'm sure how the babies felt when the command of God under the Old Testament was applied toi them as well.
     
  14. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    Our class was about nine months long, with a follow-up class afterward. But in the ancient Church, it was usually about three years.
     
  15. BD17

    BD17 New Member

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    Great posts Mojoala, and I agree.
     
  16. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    Thank you for all the responses

    With perhaps two exceptions, all of the replies so far, including those specifically defending baptism of converts, have strengthened and supported my belief in infant baptism. I had not expected this. It seems every time I find myself wavering and considering returning to Anabaptism, sufficient arguments surface to persuade me to remain Orthodox.
     
  17. BD17

    BD17 New Member

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    That would be the great working of the truth Tauf.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Each of the groups that you mentioned were persecuted by the Catholic Church to the pont of death for believing in baptism after salvation (adult baptism). Read some reliable church history books. Thousands upon thousands of Bible believing Christians were tortured, drowned, put to death by various cruel methods; and their lands disposed of--all because they believed that a man should be baptized after salvation, after he puts his faith in Christ--not in the heresy of infant baptism.

    Concerning John 3:5, I'll discuss it with you anytime. Read the entire chapter of John 3 before making any off-handed assumptions. Baptism is not mentioned anywhere in that chapter. It is not in the context. Jesus is speaking of the new birth, not baptism. The new birth does not speak of baptism; it speaks of salvation. Salvation is always by faith. An infant is incapable of believing in Christ. You take Scripture out of context and force your own theology into it to make it mean something entirely different. Tell me: When Peter walked on water, did the word "water" in that passage refer to baptism? Why or why not? Does "water" always refer to baptism? Then why must it here? Only because your theology says it must--correct? If it is wrong theology you must correct it.
    This says nothing about infants. What it says to you is: Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.
    [/quote]
    More detail is given here. I am glad you referred to this passage, because it shows how dishonest you have been with the Word of God. Jesus said nothing about infants. Let's look at the entire passage:

    Luke 18:15-17 And they brought unto him also infants, brepha that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
    16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children paidon to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
    17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child paidov shall in no wise enter therein.

    Brepha does indeed mean infant as translated by the KJV translators. That is what the disciples brought to Jesus. But that is not how Jesus responded. Jesus did not say: "Suffer the infants to come to me." or "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as an infant..."
    He did not say that!!! And you have no basis for it.
    The word paidon, the word he used, means little child, immature child, half grown boy or girl. That is the word he used. You have been dishonest with the text. He never said bring the infants to me--not in Luke nor in Matthew. He always used the word "paidon" the word for little children. The verse means that as a little child will in simple faith obey his parents (rather than the command of a stranger) so we must accept the command to come to Christ in simple child-like faith. A child does not question the authority of his father; he accepts it by faith. We must not question the Word of God or God's direction for us. We must accept it by faith. "For by grace are you saved by faith and that not of yourselved. It is the gift of God, not of works."
    If you cannot accept that with child-like faith you cannot be saved.
    DHK
     
    #78 DHK, Jul 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2006
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Cults take Scripture out of context to fit their own theology in. Is this what you do? Read on--the next two verses:

    Colossians 2:12-13 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    --Baptism has nothing to do with circumcision. It is symbolic of our death to our old sinful way of life (which an infant doesn't have). We are then symbolically risen through faith (something an infant doesn't have).
    --And you being dead in your sins (infants were never conscientiously dead in their sins--see Eph.2:1). The uncircumcision of the flesh symbolizes a spiritually dead person. Believing in Christ symbolizes a spiritually living person. An infant can neither accept nor refuse either circumcision or Christ.
    --We are made alive together with him having forgiven you all trespasses. That only comes when one puts his faith in Christ. At that point the blood of Chrsit cleanses us from all our sin; not baptism. To say that baptism forgives us our sin is both a superstition and a heresy. It is a doctrine that the Hindus believe.
    Was Ruth circumcised? What about Rahab? According to your model that eliminates the requirement of baptism for all women in the New Testament.
    The pattern is not the same. The Israelites were a nation. Abraham was their father. They were composed of 12 tribes originating from Jacob. They were formed into a nation under Moses, and into a theocracy under the hand of God at Mount Sinai. They remain a nation today.

    We are not a nation as such. When one is born again he is born into the family of God, which is a spiritual family. He is born by faith, not by physical birth.
    If you are born once you will die twice.
    If you are born twice you will die once.
    You must be born again (not baptized).
    Only those who have come to an age of reason can be born again. It is impossible for an infant to be born again.
    Even in our faith children do not become members until they are old enough to understand the issues. How can an infant vote on a buildng program? From what funds does an infant tithe? An infant is not a member of a church until he is first saved by faith and faith alone, and then baptized. The local church is composed only of regenerated baptized members.
    DHK
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Your logic is backwards. Your reasoning is from silence.
    If infant baptism were of God, then there should be an example of it somewhere in Scripture, but there isn't. Your excuse about a time frame being too little to record a child being baptized is ridiculous.
    Christ died 33 A.D. at the latest. The Apostle John wrote all of his work between 90 and 98 A.D. Are you going to tell me that 57 years is not enough time to record the baptism of a child? Ridiculous! Yet of the five books that John wrote he gives no hint of any infant baptism, none whatsoever. A child born at the very day that Christ died would be 57 at the time that John wrote his gospel. And you say that there is not enough time for any infant baptism to occur?? What lengths people go to make excuses for the heretical theology!! It is unbiblical, not found in the Scriptures, and cannot be proven by the Scriptures. Give it up.
    The Bible says in hundreds of places that one must have faith in order to be baptized. Why do you ignore this? An infant cannot have faith. This negates your first two sentences, which are inherently lies.
    "Fundamentalists are reluctant to admit that the Bible nowhere says baptism is to be restricted to adults,"
    --Is this really a true statement? Do you really believe this. Fundamentalists everywhere believe that only adults and/or children who have reached an age of understanding can be baptized. No fundamentalist or Baptist believes an infant can be baptized. Faith must precede baptism. The Bible always teaches this. You have yet to offer any evidence that it doesn't.
    DHK
     
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