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Prophecy

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Liz, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. Liz

    Liz New Member

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    i'm not offended but what you have said at all...i just think it's desputable. i totally agree that what she said could apply to more than one person, after all, the Bible was written for humankind. however, i don't think that it was vague...she pointed me to one specific Bible verse that put me on the straight and narrow and eventually after many years the meaning was revealed to me. all that i know is that what she said to me came from the Holy Spirit. i mean it may not benefit from being called prophecy...but there is no doubt in my mind that it was from the HS.
     
  2. Liz

    Liz New Member

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    i believe that just how God used sinners in the Bible to do his work he also uses the same sinners today. do you really think that God sees me or anyone else for that matter as something of a lesser person just because i am living in a different era. do you really think that his work today is not as "big" as his work in the OT just because it is not as visible? God's will is alive and at work today just as much as it was in the OT. i believe that God uses us today at directed times and for directed purposes....what else would we call his will? i think that you're putting too much emphasis on ordianry sinners in the Bible and not enough on the magnitude of God and how his spirit moves among all of his children including ordinary sinners today.
    btw...does the fact that she was a "prophetess" have anything to do with it?
     
  3. eschatologist

    eschatologist New Member

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    1Cor.13:8-10 "Love never fails. But where there are PROPHECIES, they will CEASE; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears."

    Throughout the New Testament we continually see how the Apostles took babes in Christ and taught relentlessly in an effort to bring the Bride of Christ(Church) to maturity(perfection). Paul even describes this evolution in terms of from milk to solid food. While this transition was taking place, the old system, the old covenant, was running its course to completion. This perfecting(maturing) was seen as being fulfilled relatively soon. As a matter of fact the writer of Hebrews relates it this way:

    "By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear"(Heb.8:13).

    "Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the second"(Heb.10:9).

    While the old covenant was fading away and the new covenant was maturing, these gifts were given to the church for edification and strength. They were considered by Paul to be imperfect(incomplete, immature) gifts, childish in nature, and but a refection as compared to the greater gifts(1Cor.13:10-12). And what were the greater, mature, real gifts that were to be left, the ones we were to exercise instead? None other than these: Faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love(1Cor.13:13). These are the gifts that we should exercise! The others fulfilled their needs, and miraculously so. So why the problem today? Many just do not recognize the power of faith, hope and especially love. They believe that to really show their might as a christian it is more desirable to be seen in the accompany of others performing signs and miracles. I believe for many in the time of Paul, displaying these signs was for an immature and faithfully weak church. When the church reached maturity in faith, there was no longer a need for such wonders. This is exactly what Paul relates.

    So what do you desire today? Immature and imperfect signs, even if they were relevent today, or the mature, perfected and greater signs for the church-- faith, hope and love? Or do you deny that we have yet to reach the maturity Paul exclaims as mentioned above? I believe the Bible is explicit in relating that the completion and maturity was reached upon the completion and ending of the old covenant.

    So I say this: Show me you are a disciple of the Lord by your signs and wonders, and I will show you by my faith and love.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus prophesied - he was not immature and imperfect.

    John prophesied as did Paul.

    In fact Paul commands the church as follows --


    1 Corinthians 14
    1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.



    But maybe we don't need the greater gifts any more...or is that Biblical?

    Notice what Paul says..


    1 Cor 12
    14 For the body is not one member, but many.
    15 If the foot says, ""Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,'' it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
    16 And if the ear says, ""Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,'' it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
    17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
    18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
    19 If they were all one member, where would the body be?



    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. eschatologist

    eschatologist New Member

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    I never claimed Jesus or any of the prophets and apostles were immature or incomplete. If you understood that as so then what I said must have completely bounced over your head! Paul stated himself that the gifts of prophesy and tongues were immature or incomplete gifts, a mere reflection or shadow of the greater gifts, those being faith, hope and love. It is up to you whether you want to believe Paul or not. I would suggest this though: Jesus' gift of prophesy paled in comparison to His love. If you do not believe this then you might want to back up and rethink some things in your own heart. Jesus was love!!!

    Just as the old covenant was a shadow of the greater things to come(new covenant), so were the gifts of tongues and prophesy in comparison to faith, hope and love. I do not find that hard to understand, maybe some do.

    What I would rather you do is show me by the scriptures I presented where I am wrong. Don't insist that I am degrading Jesus or His apostles and prophets! If you have a hard time accepting that these gifts were in fact inferior, then you need to question why God made an inferior covenant in the first place. I know the answer. If you don't, possibly you need to search a little deeper than the surface.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 14
    1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In this case speech itself (no matter how eloquent, no matter if it is natural or not, no matter if it is of earth or not) - is said to
    be useless unless exercised in love.

    This is not a statement saying that one day we will not speak either in human language or in a heavenly - it is urging the importance of love without arguing the ceassation of speech. (So far)
    In this case the gift of prophecy is explicitly mentioned along with knowledge of mysteries and faith. Again the argument to this point is not that Prophecy or knowledge of mysteries or faith will end -- but it is again urging the need of love in all of them.

    This is also not a statement predicting that humans will one day be all-knowing-little-gods and that no mystery (nothing unknown to them) will exist.
    Again - having a generous spirit or performing generous deeds is said to require that it be done in Love OR it too is useless.

    This is not a text predicting that kindness shown to others will one day cease.
    Here we see the impossibly high God-like standard to which Love appeals. What human can claim it?? It is a goal, a star
    by which all compasses are set - for God Himself IS Love, unconditional and infinite.
    Paul speaks of a future time when gifts of prophecy, tongues and revelation-knowledge will cease. But at this point in the text
    he has not identified the event that will mark the end of such spiritual gifts.

    Tongues is for "the unbeliever" according to 1Cor 14:22 - a sign to the unbeliever that the Gospel is of God and they should accept it.
    Prophecy is a sign for the saints - the people of God. Foretelling the future and also giving timely, current correction/instruction.
    Knowledge of bible mysteries or spiritual mysteries is needed for we walk by faith not by sight and need God's guidance.

    None of these gifts were being used in the NT text, by the NT audience -- INSTEAD of God's Word. Rather, scripture was already
    serving as the basis for ACCEPTING the gifts as we saw in Acts 2:17-21. This was not a case of gifts INSTEAD of God's Word - but
    it is a case of spiritual gifts established ON the authority of God's Word.
    Here the event is finally identified that marks the end of the need for spiritual gifts - even the gift of knowledge.

    But until the “redemption of the body” Paul says
    Notice that "in this world we KNOW in part" - our knowledge is limited by lack of contact with heaven - we see in a glass darkly while on this side of heaven.

    But in heaven there is no longer a special gift of tongues needed to be a sign to an unbeliever , nor of phrophets contacting God directly to have open communion with Him and give specific advice regarding current church issues - ONCE He comes for "we shall then SEE HIM as HE IS" 1 john 3

    1Cor 13 therefore provides a direct and clear appeal to the benefits Christ's return when we will then see FULLY, know FULLY just as we are known.

    THEN we will no longer have to rely on "gifts" of knowledge to resolve spiritual mysteries - we will know as fully as we are known - we may ask Christ, we will see him as He is.
    It is Christ's return where we will then see FULLY, know FULLY just as we are known.
    Seeing fully as we are seen - seeing Christ as He is - is realized in heaven.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    But until then (until the resurrection – when the Perfect comes) we have "hope that is NOT SEEN".
    Paul considers himself to be mature (as we see in Heb 5 and 6:1-2). He consider that already - He has reached spiritual maturity. And still, in that state He urges His readers to "Desire earnestly spiritual gifts" and He himself continues to receive revelation and describes himself as "Speaking in tongues more than you all" 1Cor14:18
    Hope is included as being less than love by comparison - and this is of value for it shows that chapter 13 is not in fact an attempt to extinguish the gifts of the Spirit in the first century AD any more than it is an attempt to extinguish faith and hope at that time.

    The NT reader would not read 1Cor 12 and be encouraged to desire spiritual gifts - only to read out of 1Cor 13 the idea that they should not desire spiritual gifts. 1Cor 14:1 in fact directs the reader of scripture to desire the gifts - especially a sign-gift singled out specifically.

    If we turn away from 1Cor 14 as "that is just for that one local church" then we have a problem with 15 regarding the 2nd coming, and 12 regarding spiritual gifts, and 13 regarding the importance of love. All of this written by the same author to the same church at the same time.

    This is spoken without qualification - whether or not you view faith and hope and love as gifts STILL the greatest is love. (And we know that hope in fact is never listed as a gift of the Spirit).

    Taking the view above – we may now affirm confidence in Spiritual Gifts as listed in 1Cor 12 – for the church today, and we may affirm
    Paul never said "The Word of God is imperfect BUT SOMEDAY it will be perfect!".

    1Cor 13 is pointing to the time when Christ comes and "We See Him as He IS" but until then "WE now see in glass dimly" But Then we shall Know even as we are known. Now we "Walk by Faith" not by sight. For Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things NOT seen.

    It would be "very difficult" to turn that clear teaching of God's Word into anything but the walk of the Saints on earth - anticipating glorification - anticipating the second coming... “Groaning within ourselves as Paul states in Romans 8 AND in 2Cor 5 until that glorious day of the “redemption of the body” as Paul states – when the Perfect Comes – and we no longer “see in a glass darkly” but rather – we See Him as He is..

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The point has to rest on the Word of God - not the traditions of man.

    In Ephesians 4 we see "the scope" of the spiritual gifts - and observe that it goes on long past the first cenutry.

    In 1Cor 12 we see that the gifts are required - in the church - in all ages - and in fact it is difficult to deny these gifts. So what is done today is to directly contradict 1Cor 14:1 and to say that the rest of the gifts are fine - but a few must stop.

    That is hard to support "sola scriptura".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is very true. And the NT saints 30, 40, 50 years after Christ needed the same continued working of the 1Cor 12 gifts of the Holy Spirit - just as much as we do today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is a little study I did on the subject of the Bible teaching on the gift of Prophecy --

    We see the participation in prophecy even before the nt was closed - by non-apostles in 1cor 14 as well.

    Four daughters of Philip
    Agabus
    local church members
    Wow - each had a revelation?? Amazing!

    And yet - none of these people are known for authoring a single letter handed down to us. Does that mean their fingers broke and they could not write?
    Of course not. It means that even though they well may have written a great deal - none of it was allowed as scripture - not because they were not inspired
    and not because a little-God inspired them while a bigger God inspired bible authors. It is because the content of the word of God - the bible is
    determined not by man - or man's wisdom - but God's alone.

    Note this is is a record of prophets before the nt was complete so that even by the worst speculation - all those gifts are still supernatural and applicable (according to the text) to all Christians, the prophecy was real - yet not used as scripture.

    Eph 1
    15 for this reason i too, having heard of the faith in the lord jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
    16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;
    17 that the God of our lord jesus Christ, the father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him.
    18 i pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of his calling, what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    19 and what is the surpassing greatness of his power toward us who believe.

    ==========================================

    God's own definition of a prophet.
    Notice that God defines a prophet as one whom he communicates with directly by dream/vision. The content of the dream or vision is not the determining factor except that we are to test it for truth, accuracy, harmony with scripture.

    Notice that Moses (also an author of scripture) is the exception based on the way God directly communicated with Moses - it was even more direct than would be expected by God's definition of a prophet. The method of communicating is the sole determining factor in the definition. But not in the test of a prophet.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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