Protestant Purgatory?

That is an easy question to answer IQ.
I'll do it for you.
Yes, I am as holy and perfect as God is.
Satisfied?
DHK

 

You can't be serious! Where would you like me to start? Start another thread, and while you are at it, prove that catholicism teaches that we are saved in conjunction with Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

1 What should ONE WHO DOES NOT PUT GOD FIRST do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
2 What should a ONE THAT TAKES THE LORDS NAME IN VAIN do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
3 What should a SABBATH VIOLATOR do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
4 What should a ONE THAT DOES NOT HONOR PARENTS do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
5 What should a MURDERER do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
6 What should a ADULTERER do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
7 What should a THIEF do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
8 What should a LIAR do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
9 What should a WIFE COVETER do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?
10 What should a HOUSE COVETER do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?

These sins are either equal in severity or they are in order of severity.

So what should one do to bring forth fruits meets for repentance if they are all equal in severity? I think it best not to restrict it to murder. Modern christians tend to believe murder is the most vilest of commandment breaking when in actuality it is not.

I only use Murder in the previous example because of that mentaliity.

 

Are you now?

 

No, see you haven't been paying attention to anything I have been saying. If person A is a believer, bought by the blood, it doesn't matter what he does, he is going to 'go to heaven'. But the interim time period, the millennial kingdom of God, is a reward for obedience. There is no hard fast rule for how good or bad you have to be to enter into the kingdom. But there are some things that will keep you out of it. I can't tell you that if you murder someone and then feel sorry about it and turn yourself in that Christ is going to overlook it at the judgment seat and allow you to reign with Him during the millennium. Nor can I tell you that if you confess the sin and throw yourself on the mercy seat that He will not. The bible says that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins if we confess them. Does sin require a punishment? Not for redemption's sake, but as a general rule, you reap what you sow. But God weighs all things, even the thoughts and intents of the heart. Why did the man commit murder? Was he truly repentant? What has he done since then? I don't have the answers to these questions and I am not God. If you want me to say that this man has to burn for his sin, I don't believe that.

 

PHP:

Somewhere "The wages of Sin is death" has to come into play somewhere.

It did. On the cross.
As far as our sin goes, as long as I'm in this earthly body I will sometimes sin. However my heart is for God. And God gave me that heart..a new desire for Him.
Until I die the war will rage on between the flesh and the spirit, but as Paul said:
Romans 7
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Amen! Thank you Jesus!

 

Yes, even now, I am as holy and righteous as God.

 

There is "no such thing as option B" - The Bible denies it - only the RCC teaches it and it does so based on man-made tradition.

The "punishment" for sin is "the 2nd death" the "wages of sin is DEATH" not "being tormented then going to heaven".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
#1. There is no such thing as "OSAS" in the Bible. It is false doctrine.

As I stated above scripture is correct -- OSAS is merely man-made-tradition.

Matt 18 (forgiveness revoked) is correct - OSAS is error
Romans 11 (cast out of the vine of Christ) is correct - OSAS is error
Ezek 18 (forgiveness revoked) is correct - OSAS is error
John 15:1-4 (cast out of the vine of Christ) is correct - OSAS is error


(I think it is easy to see a pattern here.)

The only ones who come up "needing" a "purgatory" are those who cling to the OSAS idea (in a weird 4 point Calvinist kind of way) where evil is done and needs to get some kind of 2Cor 5:10 "reward" for evil that "surely must not be" the ACTUAL reward for evil that the Bible tells us about in Rom 6:31! Some "non-bible-reward" is then "imagined" for "evil deeds" that is NOT the second death!

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is no such thing as "saved but not a saint".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

IM eisegetes 1Cor 3 by completely ignoring the entire chapter!

1Cor 3 is explicit that the "hay straw gold or silver" is the TEACHING of the person -- the BUILDER who builds on the foundation which is Christ. The ONE foundation (Petra) that IS Christ.

You simply twist that around so that by completely ignoring the chapter we can "imagine" that the WORKS of the PERSON that are burned IS THE PERSON!

How tragic that such abuse of the text must be made to please man made tradition.

In Christ,

Bob

 

1 Cor 3
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

The “reward” is specific to the one who ‘labors’ and in this case the ones “laboring” are Paul and Apollos. The rewards are specific to the evangelist that is “Doing the work”. And their work is supposed to “build up” the church – one building on the work of another. Paul says “I planted, Apollos watered”

Here we see the “good work” (good teaching) of two laborers (two evangelists) and the result is the building up of the church of God – with gospel “rewards” coming to the evangelists..

So far this has nothing to do with “murder getting less reward than loving your neighbor” as if the difference between sin and obedience is “less reward”. Nothing of the kind is being discussed in this chapter on evangelists and the teaching of evangelists!

1 Cor 3
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are [b]God's field, God's building. [/b]
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

Not this is “very specific”. The evangelists are said to be co-workers with God Himself in “building up the church of God”. Paul argues that these evangelists are to be “careful how they build” – Careful about the doctrine – the teaching that they provide. Careful that their Gospel teaching is Christ-centered.

1Cor 3
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.[/b]

Clearly the point is made that the “quality teaching” is that which is built upon the ONE foundation – the only true foundation (bedrock – Petra) of the church Jesus Christ.

It is the error – that God purges away. Error in doctrine, in Gospel teaching that will not stand. The subject is the same – the context is the same – the issue is the same. The quality of the doctrine/teaching of the various evangelists that are building the church of God as “co-workers” with God.

So far this has nothing to do with “murder getting less reward than loving your neighbor” as if the difference between sin and obedience is “less reward”. Nothing of the kind is being discussed in this chapter on evangelists and the teaching of evangelists!

The good news is that Paul predicts that those evangelists who DO bring error into the church will eventually have that error burned away. The faithful people of God will follow the Holy Spirit (ultimately) instead of the errors of man – no matter how “good intentioned” those errors are -

1 Cor 3
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 [b]If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss[/b]; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So in the case of the sincere evangelist who happens to introduce some error – the promise is that it will be tested over time – it will be burned away and the pure church will remain. The “builder” (evangelist – co-worker with God) will still be saved IF their error is not malicious or deliberate – but the error must be removed just the same.

So far this has nothing to do with “murder getting less reward than loving your neighbor” as if the difference between sin and obedience is “less reward”. Nothing of the kind is being discussed in this chapter on evangelists and the teaching of evangelists!

There is no mention here of death-then-burning (as if purgatory could be inserted here). There is no mention here of the Evangelists becoming murderers but “being saved anyway”.

All the little twists and turns (spin doctoring) that various traditions would try to insert in the chapter – just aren’t here.

1Cor 6 addresses the problem of ‘bad deeds” in the church and it says “be not deceived” …

1Cor 3 deals with the problem of the purity of doctrine that will come into the church as various “co-workers with God” seek to build up the church. There is no good way to confuse the two chapters – or mix up their content.

 

As is pointed out in 1Cor 6 "BE not DECEIVED those that practice such things DO NOT inherit eternal life" -

Instead of LIFE - Romans 2 says they get death!

In fact 1John 2 makes it clear that IF they are claiming to be "saints" or "saved" or to even KNOW Christ (who IS the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE) they are liars.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]
[/quote]

in Christ,

Bob

 

This still doesn't answer what happens if we don't confess our sins.

 

That's what an entrance into the Kingdom concerns: Rewards; it has to do with the Jugdment Seat.

What happens if we fail to confess our sins? Are we still purified from them?

 

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. (whether confessed or not)
DHK

 

Since I have shown otherwise, at great length, Bob Ryan's "Because I said so" is far from making your point.

BTW, how many more errors are you going to accept in the Scriptures? At what point do they become worthless? If you're willing to accept one contradiction, how do you know which side of the contradiction to take?

 

Well, you are correct that there is therefore now no condemnation...

But, I guess you must think that the passage in 1 John is pretty useless, since we don't have to confess our sins.

 

What is the answer?

I know you don't believe a saved person will ever go to the lake of fire. (Neither do I)