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Prov. 19:18 literal rendering or interpretation?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Jan 6, 2008.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Variation is found in the rendering of the second half of Proverbs 19:18 in the translations on the KJV-only view’s line of good Bibles. The 1535 Coverdale’s, 1537 Matthew’s, and 1540 edition of the Great Bible have the following rendering: “but let not thy soul be moved to slay him.” The 1560 Geneva may have been the first to introduce a different rendering: “and let not thy soul spare for his murmuring.” The 1568 Bishops’ Bible may have followed the Geneva with a slight modification: “”and let not thy soul spare for his crying.” The 1611 KJV kept or followed the Bishops’ rendering.

    “But lift not up thy soul to kill him” is the rendering of Haak’s 1657 English translation of the standard 1637 Dutch Bible that is accepted by some KJV-only authors. The 1395 Wycliffe’s Bible rendered it as follows: “but set thou not thy soul to the slaying of him.“

    Which rendering presents more literally what the Hebrew says?

    You may want to check the marginal note in the 1611 edition of the KJV.
     
    #1 Logos1560, Jan 6, 2008
  2. JFox1

    JFox1 New Member

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    According to the Pocket Interlniear OT, Volume III, by Jay P. Green, the literal rendering of Proverbs 19:18 from the Hebrew reads, "Chasten your son, for there is hope, and on making him die do not lift your soul."
     
    #2 JFox1, Jan 6, 2008
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The 1611 edition of the KJV has a mark for a marginal note before “for his crying.” This marginal note is as follows: “Or, to his destruction; or, to cause him to die.”
     
    #3 Logos1560, Jan 6, 2008
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    A marginal note in the NKJV at Proverbs 19:18 maintained that the literal rendering of the last part of the second half of this verse is “to put him to death.” This NKJV marginal note suggested that the rendering “on his crying” is based on “a Jewish tradition.” James D. Price listed this KJV rendering in his chart entitled “unjustifiable emendations influenced by Jewish tradition” (King James Onlyism, p. 580). Price indicates that as “the reading supported by Jewish tradition from the Talmud or medieval Jewish commentaries” (p. 561).
     
    #4 Logos1560, Jan 10, 2008
  5. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    When taking into consideration of the rest of Scripture, such as "fathers, provoke not thy children to wrath", "thou shalt not kill" ,"The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly" , I believe any rendering that suggests the death of the child to be in gross error.
     
    #5 Salamander, Jan 12, 2008
  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Chasten thy son while there is hope,
    And let not thy soul spare for his crying.
    Proverbs 19:18 AV 1873

    Sure you can translate nephesh as "soul" here
    ... but is it really needed? :smilewinkgrin:

    When you read the footnote in the KJV, which reads:
    ...and the verse that is footnoted in the KJV, which reads:

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
    Deuteronomy 21:18-21 AV 1873

    ... And when you study the meaning of the word in question that means either to kill or to die ...

    Then Holman's CSB and Lockman's NASU is closest to a literal translation.
    Nothing "gross" about it!

    Discipline your son while there is hope;
    don’t be intent on killing him.
    Proverbs 19:18 HCSB

    Discipline your son while there is hope,
    And do not desire his death.
    Proverbs 19:18 NASB95

    Now as to the meaning of the verse... here's two different interpretations.

    Discipline your son, for in that there is hope;
    do not be a willing party to his death.
    Proverbs 19:18 NIV

    Discipline your children while there is hope.
    Otherwise you will ruin their lives.
    Proverbs 19:18 NLT

    Rob
     
    #6 Deacon, Jan 12, 2008
  7. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying that the Church of England translators of the KJV were "in gross error" in their marginal note at Proverbs 19:18?

    Are you suggesting that some of the pre-1611 English Bibles of which the KJV was a revison were "in gross error" at this verse?

    One interpretation or translation of the second half of Proverbs 19:18 indicates that it is the parents' failure to discipline the child that could lead to that child's destruction or death.

    For example, the 1842 revision of the KJV by Baptists rendered the second half of this verse as: “let not thy soul spare to his destruction.” That would be in agreement with the marginal note in the 1611 KJV.
     
    #7 Logos1560, Jan 12, 2008
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