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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    My main question is this (and I come from a post-trib background):

    Why would the NT writers long for the return of Christ to end their sufferings if it meant that they would go through horrible tribulation before Christ returned?
     
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Stefan, I believe there is scripture to prove both a pre-trib and a post-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture is conditional and depends on the believer being found worthy to escape the tribulation:

    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    So they could suffer for
    Christ and bring great glory unto themselves.

    I read Eusebius'es THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH
    and those guys brag about how great they must
    suffer for Jesus, they brag about how much their
    friend suffered for Jesus.

    Even Jesus said: Mat 5:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Blessed are they which are persecuted for
    righteousnesse sake: for theirs is
    the kingdome of heauen.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I respectfully disagree. accounted worthy
    means that the person is not worthy, he is
    only reconed as worthy. None of us are worthy of
    escaping or salvation - in Christ AND ONLY
    IN CHRIST are we accounted worthy.

    Also, there is danger of basing one's doctrine
    on one and only one verse. I*t is especially
    dangerours to base one's doctrine on one
    verse and then not understand what it is saying :(
     
  5. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    None may be worthy in an absolute sense, but in a relative sense there will be varying degrees of righteousness found in God's people. But the idea of a conditional rapture is not founded on one verse.

    Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    Enoch pleased God, and he was taken. Can we say that every Christian pleases God?

    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    If we would be kept from the hour of temptation, then likewise we should keep the word of His patience. Jesus also conversely warns against not keeping the word.

    Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    What are the plagues written in this book? They are the tribulation, of course.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    StefanM,

    You have to understand, Early NT writers were suffering persecutions and tribulations. They were expecting to face tribulations first before Christ comes. Because they remembered what Christ told them of John 16:33, that they must suffer tribulations, but they should be cheerful, because Christ overcometh them.

    James Newman, you cannot saying both pretrib and posttrib are correct, if you saying so, then Christ would have come like as 'yo-yo's'.

    Luke 21:36 does not saying that we shall escape from tribulation. This verse is speak of conditional warning, if we do not watch and be ready, then we cannot escape from what??? To face Christ sits on the throne at the Judgment Day at the coming of Christ.

    Luke 21:36 is speaking to us of every individual, if we do not pray and watch, then Christ shall come to thief upon us and we shall be ashamed at the presence of Jesus Christ with his angels at the Judgement Day at the coming of Christ. Or otherwise, if we wtach and pray, walk godly and faithfully. So, we shall not be ashamed and be shoclked being end up by thief.

    Rev. 16:15 tells us, blessing is that he watches and be ready shall be dressing in white robe or garment, shall not be caught by theif at Christ's coming.

    Bible teaching us so very clear, there will be the only one future coming of Christ at the end of the world, no other else. Very simple and plain.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Thanx UZ! [​IMG]

    I bought me a copy thereof.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Strange, i've been reading the
    Bible as a Christian for 53 years and never
    did read the part where that is said cleary.
    I'm sure you will point it out to me :D
     
  9. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Lets take another look at Luke 21:36 in context.

    Luke 21:7-36
    7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
    8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
    9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
    10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
    11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
    12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
    13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
    14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
    15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
    16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
    17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
    18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
    19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    What 'all these things' is Christ talking about, if it is not all these things He just got finished talking about? Jesus is describing the tribulation in some detail, and then admonishes his disciples to watch and pray that they might escape the things he is describing.
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    James,

    Amen. Read in contextually is so important.

    Look, Luke 21:28 says, after these things come to pass THEN looking up, that mean we must see the signs come to pass first before Christ comes.

    Christ warns us, IF we do not watch and pray, then we might face troubles, wraths, punishment, and even face before the throne of Christ.

    Christ cannot come yet till we must see the signs first appearing. Same with 2 Thess. 2:3 telling us, Christ shall not come till we must see come a falling away first that is apostasy.

    Luke chapter 21 does not teaching the proof of pretrib rapture, it teaches us, that we must pray and watch so, we can escape from all of theses to come, even not face the wrath of God. OR, if we do not pray and watch, we shall suffering the consequence and the judgement. Understand?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  11. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by JGrubbs:
    I don't believe the Charismatic doctrine that Jesus died and went to hell, that is no where in the Scriptures!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This an an excerpt from a doctrine about hell. It explains a part of scripture that many have used to prove Jesus preached unto the wicked in the torment side of hell after His death;

    The Wicked and Rebellious

    1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Firstly, it is of importance to note, that Christ Jesus whilst in paradise, never preached to the unsaved on the torment side as many have taught. Rather as the scripture say's, '' by the Spirit ( the Holy Spirit ) he ( Christ ) went and preached unto the spirits ( the wicked) in prison". When did he do this ? Not after he died as taught, He preached to them as the scripture say's, " Which sometime ( Greek- pot-eh', 4225 and 5037; in the old time, in time past,) were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the day's of Noah. God showed His longsuffering to these wicked spirits by being patient for them to repent, for a hundred and twenty years, while Noah was preparing the ark.

    Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
    Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
    Gen 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

    While Noah was building the ark he also preached the righteousness of God to the wicked people. Christ did this by the Holy Spirit using Noah as a vessel to preach. The scriptures showing this are as follows;

    1Pe 3:18 but quickened by the Spirit: ( that is Christ )
    1Pe 3:19 By which ( meaning, by the Holy Spirit) also he (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,
    2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit.
    2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    So we see here in these scriptures, that Christ through the Holy Spirit, the Lord being that Spirit, preached to the wicked in Noah’s time through Noah, and that these same wicked spirits are in ( the word in being the form of present tense) prison.

    From "The Doctrine of Hell" by Graham Sly.

    PS. If you would like the complete doctrine sent via email; Please email me. (Jude 3).
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I have been a pretribber for 53 years
    and probably will be a pretribber until the
    pretribulation rapture OR until i die.
    Either way, Lord Jesus is going to come and
    get me, at the proper time.

    Romans 10:9 (KJV1769):
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
    the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
    heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
    thou shalt be saved.


    I heard this from a pretrib evangelist
    back in April 1952. I didn't want to be
    left behind. But i waited awhile cause i had
    some (8-year-old) favorite sins i didn't really
    want to get rid of. Anyway, i then first
    confessed Jesus as my Lord and He bacame my
    Savior as well. Today, again, i claim that
    Jesus is my Lord and He is still my Savior.
    For salvation (AKA: eternal life) is eternal.

    -Ed,
    Rapture Ready in Oklahoma
     
  13. A Pastor I had once said something that I found very interesting about why we will be raptured before the tribulation.

    He said you could find 10 cases in the O. T. where God REMOVED a remnant ( Christians ) from the world or a situation before he passed judgement usually in order to bring his people THE JEWS back to himself.

    A few examples that come to mind, Sodom and Gomora, Lot and his family, Noah and his family.

    The tribulation is for the Jews not for Christians.
     
  14. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    Thanx UZ! [​IMG]

    I bought me a copy thereof.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    Welcome Ed

    Another great resource, but which is best understood with some Greek background, is "Three Views on the Rapture." Archer, Feinberg, and Moo, all fine profs at TEDS, hold and argue for different views on the timing of the Rapture in that book.

    Just as one example of the topics ,extensive discussion occurs over Rev 3:10 as to whether John by the preposition "ek" (from) means a spatial separation and whether tereo (keep) carries the sense of removal or not.

    As in all lexical studies meaning is determined by usage, and so the reader is exposed to quite a number of texts in both the NT and the Septuagint where those words are used with that verb or synomyms or similar concepts to determine precisely the meaning.

    My feeling is that this is cannot be a simple subject if three scholars of this rank cannot agree among themselves.
     
  15. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    To use the examples of Lot and Noah as a reason for the pretrib rapture is major prooftexting!
     
  16. garpier

    garpier New Member

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    I agree with those who point out that the tribulation is for the Jews. It is Daniel's 70th week. I also hold to a pretrib rapture based on most of the arguments that have noted already. For those who think other wise i would like to know if you believe the coming of Christ is imminent. If so, what is the sequence leading to the rapture?
     
  17. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    Are there any Scriptures that actually say the coming of Christ is imminent? There were many events prophesied by Christ, known throughout the Christian world at that time, that still had to occur before He could return, such as the destruction of the Temple (Lk. 21:6) and the death of Peter (Jn. 21:18-19). Imminency was an impossibility until the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

    Christ taught that His rescue of the elect of God will occur "on the same day" that His wrath will begin upon the wicked that remain (Lk 17:26-30). There is no gap of time between the rapture and His wrath. If the seventieth week of Daniel is really the wrath of God, as pretribulationism maintains, and the seventieth week begins with Israel's covenant with Antichrist (Dan. 9:27), then Israel must be back in the land and Antichrist must be on the world scene before the Rapture.

    Source: Questions for a Pretribulationist
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Many saying Noah and Lot and other examples in the O.T. that God removed them before the judgement fall upon, these are the type of rapture is the proof of pretrib.

    When Christ mentioned of Noah and Lot in Matthew chapter 24, Luke chapter 17 and 21 too. You notice, the deliver of Noah and Lot is the picture of deliver as rapture before the judgement falls upon. Many saying flood and fire of O.T. is the type of seven year of Tribulation period.

    Many believe seven year of Tribulation period equals with the wrath of God.

    When you read the passage of the context of Matthew 24, Luke 17, & 21, you will not find any hint that there are two comings, but only once.

    Flood destroyed the world is the picture of God's wrath, same as the destruction of Sodom is the picture of God's wrath.

    Both pretribs and posttribs agree that Christians shall be deliver out before the wrath of God pours.

    Pretribs use 1 Thess 1:10; and 5:9 as 'proof' pf pretrib rapture.

    Posttribs include me agree with 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 100% completed.

    The question is, what the 'wrath' for?

    Simple, John 3:36 answers this question for wrath. Wrath is for send person to everlasting punishment in eternal fire because of reject Jesus Christ.

    The question is, is 'tribulation' equals with 'wrath'?

    No. Many pretribs believe it.

    Tribulation means troubles, sufferings, persecutions, distresses, etc.

    Are we appointed for tribulations? Many pretribs don't think so.

    Apostle Paul tells us, yes we are appointed for tribulations find in 1 Thess. 3:3-4 "That no man should be moved by these afflications for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation, even as it came to pass, and ye know."

    Paul tells us, that we should suffer tribulation. Why should we have tribulation? Because Christ suffered on the cross, so, therefore we ought to follow Christ's example - John 16:33; & 1 Peter 3:21 too.

    What about 1 Thess. 5:9? Notice this verse is opposite of 1 Thess. 3:3-4. First, Paul tells us, that we are appointed for tribulation. So, therefore, Church must go through much tribulations(Acts 14:22). Then, second, Paul tells us, we are not appointed to wrath. Notice, Paul distinction or spearated 'tribulation' from 'wrath' into different meanings or purposes.

    1 Thess. 5:9 tells us, that we are not appointed for wrath. Why? Because we already received Jesus Christ - salvation by believing and follow Christ have everlasting fire. OR, if we do not believeing and follow CHrist, shall suffer the wrath. What the wrath for? Suffer everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

    When you reading throughout the book of Revelation, you will not find a single verse mentioned that a saint should suffer the wrath of God, like, trumpets, & vials.

    Why? Because God knows how to care all saints.

    Rev. 3:10 does not prove the 'proof' pf ppretrib rapture.

    Reve. 3:10 talking about the conditional warning. If we keep His Word or commandments, He will take care of us while we are facing the times of temptations.

    'Hour of temption' of Rev. 3:10 does not saying it is equal with seven year of tribulation period. It speaks of the times of trials, temptations, troubles.

    1 Corinthians 10:13 tells the same thing with Rev. 3:10. This verse telling us, God promises us, that He does not allow us to face greater temptation. God knows our weakeness areas of temptation. God prevents us from being fall into sin. BUT, it tells us, that we are responsible to flee from fall into sin while facing temptaiton.

    Joseph is a perfect example of 1 Cor. 10:13 in Genesis 39:7-13. It talking about master's wife tried to persuade Joseph for sex. He refused. But, she won't give up. day by day, she kept on persuaded him for sex again and again. Joseph kept on stubborn, told no to her. One day, she kept on ask the same question to him. Then suddenly she held his garment, and he immediately fled away from her from being fall into sin with her against God. Joseph did the right thing with God.

    Rev. 3:10 have do nothing with seven year of tribulation period. It talks about the conditional and God's promise with us. IF we keep God's Word, or His commandment, He will protecting us while facing times of temptation. OR, if we do not keep His Word or commandments, He would not prevent us from temptation, we might fall into sins while not obey or keep God's Word.

    We do not have to wait for the coming "hour of temptation" - seven year of tribulation period. 'Hour of temptation' might happening anytime throughout our lifetime. Early Church already faced temptations. Just same as we are facing temptations daily throughout our lifetime.

    I don't care, how many verses or passages anywhere in the Bible as what you are trying to prove us of pretrib rapture. Pretrib rapture is a man-making doctrine, and it is very flaw, have no proof and evidence find anywhere in the Bible.

    Bible teaches us very clear there will be the only one future coming of Christ at the end of the world. You have to accept the fact what the Bible saying it. Believe what the Bible saying. Follow the Bible, what it saying.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: "Bible teaches us very clear there will be the only one future coming of Christ at the end of the world. You have to accept the fact what the Bible saying it. Believe what the Bible saying. Follow the Bible, what it saying."

    Maybe if you make bigger letters, it will soon
    be true. For the second time in this topic
    alone, show from the Bible thatwhat you say
    is true. BTW, Nobody posting here has any problem
    believing what that Bible says. Some people here
    have problems UNDERSTANDING what the Bible says :(
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are asking the impossible!!!!!!!!!
    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
     
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