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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    (AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
     
  2. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom New Member

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    What is the rapture for? It seems to me that we do not all agree.
    Pretrib, midtrib and prewrath views believe that the purpose of the Rapture is to evacuate the saints so that they will be spared the times of great difficulty that precede Christ's return.
    Postribers see the Rapture as being called up to join Christ in His return. It may be analogous to a returning general. The citizens of the town come out to meet him and form a parade to welcome him home. Or it may be analogous to citizens of a town who are forced to live under a pretender to the throne. When the rightful king returns, the loyal subjects abandon the city to join in the true King's army.
    I cut my teeth on Scofield's notes. A number of years ago, I changed my mind. I'm now a progressive dispensationalist and a post-tribber. I just don't see that the Bible promises that we shall escape tribulation. I wish we would but I think the Bible teaches the opposite. The Blessed Hope is not blessed because I get to save myself some grief. The Blessed Hope is blessed because my Savior is coming to take His throne. If I die, I die. If I suffer, I suffer. Even so, come Lord Jesus!
     
  3. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom New Member

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    The Rev. 3:20 passage is certainly not talking about the Rapture. If it were, the promise would be found in the letter to the church of Laodiceans, which is supposedly the church of the present age.
    Rev. 4:1ff is not talking about the Rapture. Those who point to "after these things" conveniently ignore that the phrase occurs other times. Rev 4 is an account of one man being caught up to heaven to receive a vision. This is the same as what happened to Ezek and Paul (II Cor 12). The future events don't begin until after the Seven Seals are opened. (TheSeven Seals are like a movie trailer, previews of things to come.)
    Note how in II Thess 2, "he" and "taken away" etc has to be filled in with preconceived pretrib elements for it to work. It's arguing in a circle. II Thess doesn't provide any proof of a pre-trib rapture.
    I Thess 4-5 implies a post-trib rapture. In chap 4 he talks about the rapture. Then going on in chap 5, he talks about the Second Coming. If you had never heard of a pretrib rapture, the passage would seem pretty clear to you that he's talking about the same thing. A pretribber, however, has to make this refer to two different events.
    In Mt 24, the rapture is posttrib not pretrib. Look at Ed's chart and the verses he cites. He has to rearrange the order of the verses in order to argue for a pretrib rapture. Taking the verses as they actually occur yields a posttrib rapture.
    Not that this really matters. He's coming and He will bless all those who love His appearing, even if we can't understand exactly how He's going to do it.
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Mr. Ekstrom,

    Amen. Well saying! [​IMG]
     
  5. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    The tribulation is the sun that will make the unripe Christians ready for the harvest.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    JGrubbs speaking of Christians in the
    Tribulation: "I believe we should be
    prepared for that later just so we are not
    caught off guard."

    In this world we shall have tribulation (if you
    haven't had your share yet I've got some
    leftover :( ).

    I note that most post-tribulationists
    (of both typed) tend to use little 't'
    'tribulation' while many pretribulationists
    use Capital 'T' 'Tribulation'. I wonder why
    the difference?

    Jesus says the TRIBULATION PERIOD will be
    the worse thing that ever happens to people
    on earth: Mat 24:21 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For then shall be great tribulation, such
    as was not since the beginning of the world
    to this time, no, nor euer shall be.


    The Tribulation Period shall be worse than
    the ravaging of Central Asia by the Mongol Horde,
    worse than the Great Plague of the 14th century
    (25 Million Europeans dead), worse than
    WW2 (over 60 million people prematurely dead),
    worse than WW3 (should it happen before
    the Tribulation period - WW3 might happen
    in connection with the Tribulation Period).
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are asking the impossible!!!!!!!!!
    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]At the risk of repeating myself!
     
  8. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    I'm not sure what point your trying to make...I used a capital 'T' for 'Tribulation' in my post, Jesus used a little 't' in the Scripture you posted. Are you trying to say that I am a pretribulationist, and Jesus was a post-tribulationist? :confused:
     
  9. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure what point your trying to make...I used a capital 'T' for 'Tribulation' in my post, Jesus used a little 't' in the Scripture you posted. Are you trying to say that I am a pretribulationist, while Jesus was a post-tribulationist? :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Technically, the translators used a little "t." :D
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed and others,

    Doesn't matter to me what you trying to define the word 'tribulation'. All of these are the same word in Greek and same meaning.

    There is no promise find anywhere in the Bible saying that we shall have no tribulation. Why should we facing tribulations? Because Christ already face tribulations in his own experince life. The same we are facing them in our lifetime.

    Many pretribbers know John 16:33 telling that we shall have tribulations, accord what Jesus Christ said.

    We have to accept the fact what the Bible saying. We must go through much tribulations to into the kingdom of God - Acts 14:22.

    Jesus Christ shall not come till all tribulations must come to pass first according Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:28.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I see a couple of posters wo suggest that because
    the Bible says we cannot know the "day and the
    hour" that Jesus will Return, that we cannot know
    the relative timing. Sorry, we can tell the
    relative timing - we just cannot tell you
    ahead of time what the Year, Month, Week, Day,
    Hour, and Minute that Jesus will Return to
    get us in the pretribulation rapture.

    However, once the pretribulation ratpture takes
    place it's date will be known. The Coming
    of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist (A/C) will
    be some 7 years later /less a few days lest
    all flesh be destroyed/.

    One example: We know that the Seconding comings
    of Jesus will be after the first comings of Jesus.

    As a result of what i say: if one says
    (and i don't say it, somebody else does)
    "Hope in the pre-wrath rapture" -- this
    is alright (wrong, but alright). Anyway
    one who says that does NOT set a date,
    only relative occurances.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I do not
    agree. "Second Coming" does not preclude
    multiple comings. "First Coming" to earth was
    NOT as many expected by many who
    studied the Old Testament (OT)prophecies.

    The first coming was multiple:

    1. Jesus came to earth as a little Baby
    at Bethelhem.

    2. Jesus returned to earth after going
    to hell and to heaven (between his death
    on the cross and His resuurection).

    Again, let the Bible be your guild.

    What is the difference between 'hope' and
    'faith'? Why are both mentioned along with
    'love' here?

    1Co 13:13 (Geneve Bible of 1585):
    And nowe abideth faith, hope and loue,
    euen these three: but the chiefest
    of these is loue.


    Heb 11:1 (Geneva Bible of 1585):
    Now faith is the grounds of things, which are
    hoped for, and the euidence of things
    which are not seene.


    Faith then is of things partially seen;
    hope is of things which are not seen.

    I hope there is a pretribulation rapture
    and I hope that I am in it. I have faith
    that Jesus is going to come get me and
    take my soul to heaven
    in either a rapture or in death. So i'll
    be partaking in either a resurrection of the
    just (AKA: first resurrection) or the
    rapture which immediately follows.
    I hope there is a pretribulation rapture
    and I hope that I am in it.

    Of course, i have three proofs from scriputre
    of the pretribulation rapture -- all three of them
    the Lord gave me AFTER i believed in the
    pretrilbulation rapture/resurreciton. Most
    pretrib preacher/teachers do NOT use these
    three scriptures as proof of the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Because there was no discussion of what i said,
    i will presume that everybody agreed [​IMG]

    It would be nice if folks told what they
    beleive and what they hope. [​IMG]
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    JGrubbs: "To use the examples of Lot and Noah as a reason
    for the pretrib rapture is major prooftexting!"


    Mat 24:37-39 (Geneva Bible): But as the dayes of Noe were,
    so likewise shall the comming of the Sonne of man be.
    38 For as in the dayes before the flood, they did eate
    and drinke, marrie, and giue in mariage, vnto the day
    that Noe entred into the Arke,
    39 And knewe nothing, till the flood came, and tooke
    them all away, so shall also the comming
    of the Sonne of man be
    .

    Yep! Jesus was doing some major prooftext giving [​IMG]

    Jesus could have used the example of Daniel who was
    KEPT THROUGH the Lion's Den, BUT he used Lot who was
    TAKEN OUT before the destruciton of Sodom.

    Jesus could have used the example of the Three Hebrew Children
    who were KEPT THROUGH the firey furnace, BUT he used
    Noah who was TAKEN OUT before the destruciton of
    the Earth in the Great Flood.

    So i see God rescuing the Church, the body of Christ,
    the Bride of Christ BEFORE the Tribulation Flood not
    through the Tribulation period.
     
  14. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    Using the example that Christ used of Noah still doesn't prove the pretrib rapture, believing in the pre-wrath rapture I can use that same text to say that just like Noah was spared from the flood so the Church will not undergo His wrath, I believe we will be raptured before the day of the Lord during the second half of Daniel's seven year period. Christ is simply saying that we will be taken away, he is not saying anything about the timing in relation to the coming of the Antichrist.

    http://home.elp.rr.com/endtimeprophecy/
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I beleive the whole 7-years of Daniel's
    70th week (AKA: the Tribulation Period)
    is the wrath of God. During the second
    half of the week, the Wrath of God gets turned
    on full steam. The first half of the week
    is the diluted Wrath of God; the second half
    of the week is the un-diluted Wrath of God.
    Thus the whole Tribulatin Period is the
    wrath of God -- the Church does not have
    to suffer the Wrath of God.

    So we disagree. I agree to disagree politely.

    What i don't understand is those who disagree
    but use the impolite 'argument' that they
    don't understand what i'm talking about. Here
    i understand perfectly what Brother JGrubbs
    is saying, i just don't agree. [​IMG]

    In fact, i could probably give JGrubb
    a few pointers on arguing his belief [​IMG]
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    To use the examples of Lot and Noah as a reason for the pretrib rapture is major prooftexting! </font>[/QUOTE]So you would say Jesus "prooftexted"? You are aware that these are the ONLY 2 examples Jesus gave?
     
  17. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    Read my previous post, my point is that while it is correct that Jesus used these 2 examples to talk about the end times, it doesn't prove the pre-trib rapture anymore than it proves the pre-wrath rapture. To say that it is proof of the pre-trib rapture is "prooftexting".
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you read the Book of Judges and count the number of times God punished Israel. That is just for a start.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are asking the impossible!!!!!!!!!
    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]At the risk of repeating myself!
    </font>[/QUOTE]At the risk of repeating myself again. The pretribbers know this to be true but they do a good job [well not really, they just try] of convoluting Scripture!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    oops, duplicate post
     
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