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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ed

    With all the verbage you have presented on this Forum you have yet to present aa single fact that proves a pretrib removal of the Church.
     
  2. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    Ed Edwards

    Please look at the emphasis on Babylon; that the bride of Christ will be gathered to the Lord after Babylon is judged not before (In Revelations chapter 19.) Therefore showing that the wrath off God must be poured out on Babylon before we are gathered unto the LORD.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    With all your casting of darkness
    against the pretribulation rapture/resurrection,
    has not deminished my hope one wit.
    And you are going to claim God causes you
    to slap me around with a smelly wet fish?
    Get real.

    Anybody want to challenge my proofs point
    by point? It amazes me that i've gone ten
    pages here and am getting questions about
    what i said on page three :confused:
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ed: "(By the same token, nobody can prove that the pre-tribulation rapture WILL NOT happen)"

    Paul33: //Jesus can and did! He stated to his disciples, the founders
    of HIS CHURCH, that they would not be gathered
    by the angels until after the tribulation.//

    Chapter and verse. Oh, i probably know:

    Matthew 24:29-31 (HCSB):

    29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
    The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed
    her light; the stars will fall from the sky, and
    the celestial powers will be shaken.
    30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
    in the sky, and then all the tribes of the land
    will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man
    coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet,
    and they will gather His elect from the four winds,
    from one end of the sky to the other.

    This modern version (which skips a vital Greek word
    that starts verse 31) suggests that the phrase
    Jesus uses "imediately after the tribulation of those
    days" certain things will happen in this order:
    1. the celestial signs
    2. The sign of Christ shall appear and
    "all the tribes of the land
    will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man
    coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
    3. the elect will be collected.

    But wait, why would all tribes morn, if some are the
    elect who KNOW they are about to be collected?

    There is a better understanding.
    In verse 3 the disciples as THREE QUESTIONS.
    What are the answers to their three questions.
    I listed already my thoughts. Anti-pretribs can
    bring forth thier montras - 'haven't shown a pretrib
    verse' - but the selfsame anti-pretribs cannot
    (or will not, or don't understand the request)
    answer (using the words of Jesus) the answer
    to the disciples questions. My explanation i gave
    earlier (well, maybe i did, i can't find it easily)
    is repeated below.

    Recall the use in the Greek of the polysendton 'kai'
    (repeated 'and's) instead of our current microsoft
    bullets or a modern outline of hierarcal relationsships
    of statements:

    -----------------------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the Tribulation period.
    The Sign of His coming will be the Tribulation period.
    The Sign of His coming will be the Tribulation period.

    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
    -----------------------------------

    Some insist that i put to much logic into this.
    Some insist that it is to complex to be see
    (they want it simple so even the evil could figure it out).
    Some say that isn't what 'polysendenton' means.
    Some say that I have underarm odor [​IMG]

    None dare say that i bring a message from God
    that He wants you to know.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I admit that the
    destruction of Babylon preceedes the Bride
    party in Chapter 19 - in the book of Revelation.
    However, the events cannot come down in that
    order.

    During the seven years between the
    rapture/resurrection of the church age saints
    and their return to earth with Jesus
    several things need to be done:

    1. The awards ceremony
    2. The marriage of the Bride
    3. The training of the saints to ride horses.

    Rev 19:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the armies which were in heauen followed him vpon white horses, clothed in fine linnen, white and cleane.

    Yep 'I hate Sin', we are going to be riding
    in that crowd. Strangely, when millions
    of white robed folks riding white horeses
    are seen from a distance - it looks like a white
    water cloud.

    Act 1:9-11 (KJV1611 Edition):
    9 And when hee had spoken these things, while
    they beheld, hee was taken vp, and a cloud
    receiued him out of their sight
    .
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward
    heauen, as he went vp, behold, two men stood
    by them in white apparell,
    11 Which also said, Yee men of Galililee, why
    stand yee gazing vp into heauen? This same
    Iesus, which is taken vp from you into heauen,
    shall so come, in like maner as yee haue
    seene him goe into heauen.


    Jesus shall return in victory against the
    Antichrist and his minions accompanied by
    clouds of white robed, white horse ridin'
    Jesus Phreaques. Somebody wanta shout "AMEN!"?
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    I still not give up on you. I am patience with you. I love you as my brother in Christ.

    You mentioned of Matthew 24:3 on three questions as you given three outlines on the end times.

    Notice Luke 21:7 says, "And they asked him, saying, 'Master, but when shall these things be ? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass ? Luke 21:7 tells us, they asked Christ of two questions.

    Are there a conflict between Matthew 24:3 & Luke 21:7?

    No.

    Remember, the three gospels are almost synonymous. Expectly, the gospel of John different from three gospel books(Matthew, Mark, & Luke). Because there were audiences, witnesses. These records were written as what they heard, and saw, told the story. these are are not exactly same thing as what they saying. That is not mean that they were wrong. These are closely match together looks pretty prove good enough for the evidence. For a good example of using witnesses in the court.

    A witness would saying to the judge or attorney, saying, "In the night, I think I saw a dark green car parking at the store..." And other witness saying, "Two weeks ago at around 11 pm, I saw a dark color car parking at the store..." Both witnesses telling little bit differently, but both seems close enough fit together. The actual color car is forest(dark green). Does that mean both witnesses are telling the lie? No. They both telling the truth.

    Same with disciples were asking Christ of Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21. These are not exactly same thing as what they saying. But, these are closely fit together so well.

    Ed, didn't you realized that you have to read Matthew 24:3 very carefully, it says, "...the disciples came unto him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    Notice, there are only TWO questions, as what disciples asked Christ, NOT three questions.

    I know why you given three outlines of Matthew 24:3-31. Because you use word, 'and' , as what you interpreting these into different events because of 'and'.

    I know your intepreting way so well for 3 years.

    Actually, the disciples were asking Christ about the signs what will be happen at the end of the world and his coming. They never saying that the signs are separate from Christ's coming. They wanted to know what will be the signs to show us of His coming will be at the end of the world.

    Again, I keep on telling you so many times for 3 years.

    Read them in context, context, context, context, context, context, context, context!!!

    You always keep on separate verse 30 from verse 31 by breaking Christ's word of His coming. That is against Hermeneutic Rule - 'Interpreting in CONTEXTUALLY'.

    No excuse for you in 54 years, that you know better than that, that Christ telling us very clear, that we shall see the sign of the cosmic disturbance up in the air to announce of His coming, THEN, He shall be appear with his angels in the clouds, and the trumpet shall be sounded, and we all shall be gathering together in the air! That is the order as what it according of Christ's word of Matthew 24:29-31 - contextually.

    We do not have to wait for the coming tribulation period. We are already been in tribulations for so many centuries since Early Christians already faced them according to Acts 14:22- "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we MUST through MUCH tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

    Early Christians already faced tribulations and persecutions, just as we are facing tribulations today.

    Ed, I know why you use word, 'THE tribulation period', because you interpreting of Matt. 24:21- 'For then shall be GREAT tribulation...' speaks of future seven years of "tribulation period".

    Partial/Full Preterists interpreting Matt. 24:21, that they saying, it already fulfilled in year 70 A.D. that Roman invaded Jerusalem, there were great tribulation.

    I do agree with them partially on Matthew 24:21. They are partially correct about Matt. 24:21, because of the history told us so.

    But, I believe Matthew 24:21 is yet to come is a future event. Because we are witnessing that more Jews coming to Israel and Jerusalem since year 1948/1967. As the population of Jews in Israel & Jerusalem is growing so fast. But, also not just for Jews only, also, more Christians(Gentile believers) are dwelling in Israel and in Jerusalem too.

    My understanding of Matthew 24:15-21 telling us, when the Antichrist shall be revealed in Jerusalem, claim that he is the true Messiah, will be filty and doing wicked against God, and makes God sick. Many Jews and Christians will be aware that he is not true Messiah, and know there will be horrible persecution as "Holocaust II" . They would have to escape hide in the mountians or wilderness stay away from their homes. Christ warns us, it will be much more worser than all any perscutions of the humankind history from the beginning to now.

    Right now, we are in tribulations. In Church history already face many different kinds of tribulations, some were light, some were heavy, some were terrible, some were great, etc.

    I strong believe when we shall see the revealed of Antichrist, there will be much more worst persecution against us, it would be much worser than all tribulations of the past.

    Go ahead, you might not agree with me of my belief about 'great tribulation'.

    I believe 'great tribulation' shall last for only 42 months, not seven years according what pretrib teachings. Because of Rev. 13:5-7 telling us, that Antichrist shall be reign for only 42 months(around 3 1/2 years) and will persecute against us.

    Ed,

    You have a serious problem with timing of rapture in Matthew 24. You saying that 'great tribulation' of Matt. 24:21 is a future event right AFTER rapture. My question for you. Where can you place rapture, which will be take place around Matt. 24:21??????

    I agree with you, that Matt. 24:31 is speak of rapture/resurrection. You have to be aware of many pretribbers in this board(baptistboard) might not agree with you on Matt. 24:31 is speak of rapture/resurrection. Pretrib's intepreting of Matt. 24:31 is speak of the gathering of the Jews, and bring them back to Israel at the second coming of Christ at the end of tribulation period.

    Ed, you saying of Matt 24:31 saying rapture/resurrection which ends the "current church age", or "gentile age", or "age of grace" (according to dispensationalism doctrine).

    Bible teaches us there are only TWO ages. Right now, we are this present age. This present age have been occuring since from the creation as we are under evil world system, which Satan is the god of this world last for around 6000 years to today. The next age will be eternality yet to come, that would be at Christ's coming. Very simple and plain.

    Later this week, I will make post on verses on two ages.

    Right now, we are in the LAST DAYS. We are seeing the signs are happening in our last days. The signs shall be finally all shall be fulfilled by follow at the coming of Christ - Matt. 24:29-31.

    Christ's coming shall be revealed by the signs that we all shall see His coming according Rev. 1:7. His coming shall not be a secert, but visibly and physical.

    You mentioned on Acts 1:9-11.

    Look, Acts 1:9-11 telling us, there shall be the only ONE future coming at the end of the world. Acts 1:11 is much same fit with Rev. 1:7 so well. Obivously, also, Matt. 24:30; Acts 1:11; & Rev. 1:7 all are posttrib coming of Christ- the only ONE future coming, not two comings according Dabry's teachings.

    Very simple and plain.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    Isn't Ed's position that the second coming has two phases, one where Jesus comes to the atmosphere (but does not "touch down") to rapture the church, and the second where he comes to touch down and destroy the evil armies of Satan? I think Ed has shared the verses indicating but not proving these two different phases. These 7 years may be called the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, as the prophets in the OT foresaw it. Then the millennial reign of Christ begins and then after 1000 years the armies of Gog and Magog (all those descendents throughout the millennium (from those who became believers in during the tribulation period) who did not choose Christ in the millennium are destroyed and cast into the Lake of Fire. I know verses in support of this interpretation.

    I guess deafposttrib sees it as those who are alive and remain will zip up to the clouds only to jump on some white horses come back down to the earth again to observe Armageddon. Is this right?

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  8. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    And for you posttribbers, is the marriage supper of the Lamb in the clouds the split second before Armageddon, or afterward?

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 1:7

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    How do pretribbers get around the above passage which tells us?

    1. every eye shall see him, and
    2. they also which pierced him, and
    3. all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

    They can't so I will answer it for them: a general resurrection and judgment as shown in John 5:28, 29

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular:
    //Revelation 1:7

    //Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    //How do pretribbers get around the above passage which tells us?

    //1. every eye shall see him, and
    2. they also which pierced him, and
    3. all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.//

    This is a repeated argument. Please try out some new ones.
    Thank you.

    This is when the Lord comes at the end of the Tribulation
    period to smash the Antichrist and his lackies and those
    who have taken the mark of the beast.
    This is DIFFERENT from the time when Jesus will come
    to get His own.

    I've already denoted the differences, but since some have
    reading dificulties (and it is always hard to find
    anything in all the pages of this topic), here is the
    differnces again:
    ------------------------------------------
    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

    13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
    -- from the wrath to come
    13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come
    ---------------------------

    How do posties get around that verse?

    It says "all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him".
    Will those for whom Jesus is coming to deliver be
    wailing because of Him? I know I won't. I'm looking
    forward to the time that Jesus will come get me and
    hope it will be before I die or go get killed in the
    Antichrist's torture chambers.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: "Bible teaches us there are only TWO ages. Right now, we are this present age. "

    Yes, the Bible teaches that. But the Bible teaches more ages
    than that.

    Here is my collection of 'age' teachings:
    ------------------------------
    "AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

    The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
    Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
    So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
    References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.


    Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
    Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
    it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
    it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
    The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
    is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

    *souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

    Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
    Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
    so it will be at the end of this age.

    Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
    So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
    forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

    Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
    Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
    to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
    And what will be the sign of Your coming,
    and of the end of the age?"

    Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
    teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
    and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

    *Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
    *the age has an end

    Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
    who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
    and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
    with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

    *people will have eternal life, in the age to come

    Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
    who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
    and in the age to come eternal life."

    Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
    34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
    and are given in marriage.
    35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
    and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

    *there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

    1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
    Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
    of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    *this age has a disputer

    1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
    However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
    yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
    who are coming to nothing.

    *the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
    *the rules of this age will come to nothing

    1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
    which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
    they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
    Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
    to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

    2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
    whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
    lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
    who is the image of God, should shine on them.

    *the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

    Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
    who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
    us from this present evil age, according to the will
    of our God and Father,

    *this age is evil

    Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
    far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
    and every name that is named, not only in this age
    but also in that which is to come.

    *there is an age to follow this age

    Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
    against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
    against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

    * this age is dark

    1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
    Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
    nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
    us richly all things to enjoy.

    * this age has rich people in it

    Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
    teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
    we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

    Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
    and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

    This great section on the Security of the Believer
    speaks of an "age to come".
    * there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

    AGES in the KJV1769:

    Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
    That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
    of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    **There will be ages after this age.

    Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
    Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
    as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
    Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
    world without end. Amen.

    Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
    and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    *There were ages before this age.
    *ages are related to generations
    -----------------------------------
    *BTW world without end kinda
    precludes the "all embacing end of the earth
    when Jesus comes" theory [​IMG]

    I also note that the KJV gets
    the Greek worrd 'cosmos' (in english: World)
    and 'aeon' (English 'age') confused
    including the key prophetic verse Matthew 24:3.
    IT is the aeon ending being talked about
    not the cosmos ending. That is why i
    selected the New King James Version over
    the King James Version for this writing.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: "Christ's coming shall be revealed by the signs that we all shall see His coming according Rev. 1:7. His coming shall not be a secert, but visibly and physical."

    You sure did beat up that "secret rapture" strawman good.
    To bad nobody in this debate who believes in the
    pretribulation rapture ever introduced that secret
    rapture theory. Come on, don't debate with all the world's
    self-proclaimed pre-tribualtionists, talk to the ones
    here.

    BTW, for every dozen points i bring up from the Bible
    about the future, Bro. OldRegular only trys to knock down
    one. At least Bro. DeafPosttrib trys to knock down
    three or four [​IMG]
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular: "You make my point aboyt (sic) the
    pretribers twisting. Nowhere on this Forum have
    i stated that I am a Calvilnist."

    So i guess i have to read you your rights?
    Anything you say on the Baptist Board can and will be
    used against you in a debate Forum.
    (exception: in the Private Forums what you can cannot
    be used against you in a debate Forum)

    BTW, I'm a 4-point Calvinist and for 53 years
    have been a Jesus Believer & pretribulation Rapture
    HOPER!.

    I expose:
    DeafPosttrib is an a-mill post-tribber.
    OldRegualar is a pre-mill post-tribber.
    These guys can't even agree on what happens after
    the Second Advent of Jesus - tee hee!

    There are two widely variant theories of post-trib -
    two directions (a-mill & Pre-mill) from which
    post-trib can come. These two groups do NOT agree.
    There is only one x-mill theory that can have a
    pre-trib rapture: the pre-mill.

    Pre-mill -- Jesus comes before the Millinnial Kingdom (MK)
    Post-mill -- Jesus comes after the people set up the MK


    a-mill1 -- the MK is figurateve; the Second Advent (SA) is physical
    a-mill2 -- the MK and SA arfe both spiritual only (no physical component)
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    No such thing as a 4 point Calvinist!

    I see now why you are a pretribber, you don't understand what you read. I am amillennial and have stated such numerous times on this Forum. DeafPostTrib can answer for himself.
     
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

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    Maybe there are "fast food" joints in the clouds we don't know about! [​IMG]
     
  16. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Ed can't even agree with Jesus' own words in Matthew 24! Tee hee!
     
  17. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by I hate sin:

    Please look at the emphasis on Babylon; that the bride of Christ will be gathered to the Lord after Babylon is judged not before (In Revelations chapter 19.) Therefore showing that the wrath off God must be poured out on Babylon before we are gathered unto the LORD.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote: (by Ed Edwards);

    I admit that the
    destruction of Babylon preceedes the Bride
    party in Chapter 19 - in the book of Revelation.
    However, the events cannot come down in that
    order.

    During the seven years between the
    rapture/resurrection of the church age saints
    and their return to earth with Jesus
    several things need to be done:

    1. The awards ceremony
    2. The marriage of the Bride
    3. The training of the saints to ride horses.

    Rev 19:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the armies which were in heauen followed him vpon white horses, clothed in fine linnen, white and cleane.

    Yep 'I hate Sin', we are going to be riding
    in that crowd. Strangely, when millions
    of white robed folks riding white horeses
    are seen from a distance - it looks like a white
    water cloud.

    Act 1:9-11 (KJV1611 Edition):
    9 And when hee had spoken these things, while
    they beheld, hee was taken vp, and a cloud
    receiued him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward
    heauen, as he went vp, behold, two men stood
    by them in white apparell,
    11 Which also said, Yee men of Galililee, why
    stand yee gazing vp into heauen? This same
    Iesus, which is taken vp from you into heauen,
    shall so come, in like maner as yee haue
    seene him goe into heauen.

    Jesus shall return in victory against the
    Antichrist and his minions accompanied by
    clouds of white robed, white horse ridin'
    Jesus Phreaques. Somebody wanta shout "AMEN!"?

    ------------------------------

    Brother Ed, the events in Rev 19:1-9 can come down in this order for the fact being that these verses are a continuous following. Firstly in verse 1 and 2 we are told that much people tell us that the whore hath ( hath being in the past tense of grammar) been judged.
    Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore.
    Secondly we are told that her smoke rose up for ever.
    Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever.
    Thirdly we are told in the same context from the voice of a great multitude, that the marriage of the Lamb is come.
    Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    When did it come? After the whore was judged with the wrath of God and not before. This marriage is the gathering of the saints unto our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    The awards ceremony does not take place till after the wrath of God is poured out upon Babylon, as was said in the above, Babylon is judged then comes the resurrection of the saints with their rewards. Note, that this seventh angel that blows his trumpet in Rev 11: 15, is blowing the same last trumpet as in these following scriptures;
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    The tribulation period is not the wrath of God; the wrath of God is poured out upon Babylon in one day in one hour.
    Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
    Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
    A great majority of believers will be dead from not receiving the mark of the beast, and those saints who barley survive will be protected from these plagues just as Israel was protected from the judgements of God in Egypt. While Egypt was in complete darkness Israel was in complete light in Goshen. They neither received damage to their crops as well as not receiving any of the plagues all the while the Egyptians did. It must be remembered that the saints are not appointed unto wrath;
    1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
    But all saints are appointed unto tribulation of all sorts including the mark of the beast;
    Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
    Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Concerning your quoting on the bride of Christ being trained to ride horses, there is no such thing ever mentioned in scripture. And when we are to ride horses (if it is the saints) we would never need to be trained as much as not needing to know how to fly through the air to meet our Lord.

    Your quotation of Acts 1:9-11 has nothing to do with the saints riding horses if that is what you mean, but rather it is in reference to when the Lord will descend upon the mount of Olivet and cause it to cleave in two so that Israel will run to their Messiah at the end.
    Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    I fully agree with you Brother Ed and do shout amen that Christ shall return in victory. With Christian love brother Graham Sly.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Maybe there are "fast food" joints in the clouds we don't know about! [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]I wondered where the airlines were getting the food they now serve :D
     
  19. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    AMEN! [​IMG]
     
  20. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    I thought this only had to do with Baptist nursery theology.

    [​IMG]

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
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