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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    I wonder if the Lord will let some of these posttribbers go through the tribulation, since it appears they want to go through it so badly.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Bluefalcon,

    Does any posttribber saying that want go through tribulation so badly?

    So far I am aware that there is none posttribber saying it according as what you say.

    Please explain what Christ saying of John 16:33 to me?

    Please explain to me, why Paul telling us that we must go through much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God? - Acts 14:22?

    What is the purpose that we have to face tribulations?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    The "church" is conspicuously absent from the events of the tribulation period described in Revelation. The tribulation is for those who "dwell upon the earth", not for the church. And God hasn't appointed us to wrath, either, although the Thessalonians apparently weren't sure about that. And wrath doesn't necessarily mean damnation, and if it did, boy were Paul's converts messed up for thinking God had damned them to eternal hell.

    1 Thes. 5:9 (ISV): "For God has not destined us for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

    Rev. 3:10 (ISV): "Because you have kept my command to endure, I will keep you from the hour of testing that is coming to the whole world to test those living on the earth."

    This hour of testing can mean nothing other than the testing described throughout the rest of Revelation. Or are only some churches to be saved from this testing, and others not?

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  4. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    It means what unfolds in Acts, and what has unfolded almost without exception to Christians of all ages, suffering for the faith.

    Millions of Christians have died since Paul made that statement and will continue to die because of their faith. Christians are destined for suffering, unless of course you live in the God blessed U.S. of A., but America's time of glory will soon come to a spectacular end, only a few well-placed nukes and the obliviation of the stock market, and total anarchy will reduce our great nation to nothing.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  5. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    And who says these illustrations from the OT are prooftexting? God didn't do one thing to Job; Satan did it all. In the tribulation period, it is Almighty God himself killing billions of his own creation made in his own image, but who don't believe the truth and instead take pleasure in unrighteousness. Hint: This is not the church! Where else in the Bible does God squash his very own children like grapes and stamp the bloody juice into the ground with a fierce look of vengeance on his face? That God will do such to his precious church bought with his own blood is nowhere talked about in Revelation, and that's a fact.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  6. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    Have you ever read Ephraem the Syrian (A.D. 370). He made some pre-trib statements.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Word, 'Church' is not find anywhere from Revelation chapter 4 thru chapter 19 is a weak arguement.

    Isn't 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 part of the body of Christ as Church?

    Also, John does not saying that he sees "Church" appears in the heaven between chapter 4 thru 19 of Revelation either.

    Look at the example of Hebrews in Egypt while God poured plaques upon Egytpians. All Hebrews were protected by God.

    Why should we worry about the wrath of God? Where is your faith?

    Rev. 3:10 - "hour of temptation" does not saying it is so called, 'seven year of tribulation period'.

    Matthew Henry Commentary on Rev. 3:10. He wrote them in year between 1690 to 1710's. That was over 100 years before John Darby developed pretribulation doctrine.

    Matthew Henry wrotes on Rev. 3:10: "By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in TIMES of peaces will make them fruitful in TIMES of persecution.".

    'Hour of temptation' means times of trials, persecutions. We do not have to wait for the coming "hour of temptation"-so called, 'seven year of tribulation period'.

    We already facing temptations daily throughout our lifetime.

    Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep God;s Word(commandments), God will protect us while we are facing trials, persecutions, and temptations. OR... what if we do not keep God's Word, He would not protect us while facing trials, persecutions, temptations, that means we might fall into troubles and problems, if we do not obey God. Rev. 3:10 clearly speak of conditional warning.

    1 Thess. 5:9 of 'wrath', it does not saying that is so called, 'seven year of tribulation period'.

    My understanding of 1 Thess. 5:9 is speak of deliver us from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ - salvation. The wrath of God is for to punish upon people who sinned, doing wicked, disobey, not believing upon Christ. Send them into everlasting punishment - hell.

    Same with John 3:36 tells us, anyone who do not believing upon Christ, while God is still wrath upon them- send them to everlasting fire.

    By the way, throughout in the book of Revelation, you cannot find any verse in there saying that the wrath shall be pour upon A saint.

    Then why shall you be worry about the wrath? Where is your faith? Trust in the Lord. He always take care of us all the times, because He loves us so much.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Bluefalcon,

    You asked me,

    Ahhhhhh! Yes, I already read Dr. Thomas Ice's site as he quoted from Grant Jeffrey's article.

    So, Tim Warner rebuttal on Grant Jeffrey's article, what he examined on Ephraem's comment carefully. Warner says, read that comment in context so carefully to understand completely what all are talking about.

    Please read Warner's article on Ephraem: http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/ephraem.html

    Ephraem does not matter to me, if it is clear pretrib or not.

    Look at so much overwhelming evidences of Early Fathers' books, as what they really saying about Christ's coming, all are so much overwhelming are posttrib, because they believed there shall be the only ONE future coming of Christ.

    None of them were teaching on split comings throughout eighteen centuries till Darby developed it. And many Christians begun to adopted Darby's new teaching of split comings.

    We ought to sticky on God's Word, what it saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    I think some will turn to God in the tribulation period, many from Israel, even "all" Israel, will be saved. They will recognize the one whom they pierced, and all the world surrounding them to destroy them, and they will be saved by Jesus. The 144,000 elect from Israel will also cover the earth in one last evangelism crusade.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  10. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    Couldn't John be referring to the saints of Rev. 7:3-8, the 144,000? And this brings up another point.....if the church were still around on the earth during this time, why didn't any of them get sealed? Did all the church of God turn against him during the tribulation except the select few from Israel? Or were they all killed by the antichrist forces?

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  11. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by I hate sin:
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I thought this only had to do with Baptist nursery theology.



    Cheers, Bluefalcon

    ------------------------------

    Brother Bluefalcon,

    What do you mean by your quote; please expound.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: "Isn't 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 part of the body of Christ as Church?"

    No.

    1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
    Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
    nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

    Both the JEwS and the CHURCH OF GOD are 'saints'
    but they are not united into one body until after
    the Second Coming is complete and the physical, earthly
    Millinnial Kingdom of Christ is set up.
    Unfortunately for the a-mill/post-trib theory, that
    time does not physically exist.

    BTW, between the O.T. and N.T. both the JEWS and
    the CHURCH OF GOD are also called 'church'. But
    here ther CHURCH OF GOD is the church of this age.
    This age is the Gentile Age when Gentiles are added
    to the Church of God. THe Gentile Age ends at the
    pretirublation rapture. At the pretirublation rapture
    all the mostly Gentile Church of God (includes
    some messianic Jews) will be raptured &/or resurrected.
    Color us GONE! PRAISE JESUS!!!!
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //Also, John does not saying that he sees "Church" appears in the heaven between chapter 4 thru 19 of Revelation either. //

    Nobody said it did.
    Somebody said that Revelation 4:1 is a TYPE of
    the pretribulation Rapture. That means metaphor,
    not the actual transport of the pretribulation
    raptured church to heaven. Anyway in Chapters 6
    and 7 we see the saints assembled in heaven.

    Here we are:
    Rev 7:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I said vnto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
    These are they which came out of great tribulation,
    and haue washed their robes, and made them white
    in the blood of the Lambe.

    Yes, Sir - Praise the Lord! we who are alive when Jesus
    comes at the beginning of the Tribulation Period and
    are IN Christ shall be WITH Christ forever: starting
    in heaven first, just LIKE/AS/SIMILAR TO John in Rev. 4:1.
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ed Ed

    Almost got something right. Those Saints throughout all time who have died and escaped the trials that the world presents will dwell in heaven with the Triune God until that Great Day when God will bring all things as we know them to an end:

    1. The sound of the seventh and last trumpet when the temple of God is opened [Revelation 11:15-19] and the great day of the wrath of God has come [Revelation 6:17].
    2. There will be a general resurrection of the dead. John 5:28, 29].
    3. The reunion of the souls of the deceased Saints with their resurrected bodies [1 Thessalonians 4:15-18] and the change of the living Saints will occur [1 Corinthians 15:51-53].
    4. Death and the fear of death is conquered for the Saints [1 Corinthians 15:54-58].
    5. Jesus Christ will set on the Great White Throne of His judgment from whose face heaven and earth shall flee [Revelation 29:11].
    6. The books, including the Book of Life, shall be opened [Revelation 20:12].
    7. Jesus Christ shall conduct the final judgment in which He shall separate His Sheep from Satans goats [Matthew 25:31-40, [Revelation 20:12].
    8. Satan and his goats shall be cast into the lake of fire [Revelation 20:14, 15].
    9. Those Saints, those whom Jesus Christ has redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation [[Revelation 5:9] will dwell throughout eternity in the new heavens and earth with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit [Revelation 21, 22].
     
  15. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    There are some major differences in O.T. saints, N.T. saints (the Church) and Tribulation saints.

    O.T. saints were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

    Notice N.T. saints are sealed by the Holy Spirit in their heart: 2 Cor. 1:22, Eph 1:13, 4:30, Jude 1

    Tribulation saints will be sealed by angels upon their forehead: Rev. 7:1-3, 9:4
     
  16. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Are you saying that all the dead will be resurrected at the same time?

    I believe the Bible points to several resurrections:
    Matthew 27:51-53, Rev. 20:4-5
    Notice there is a thousand years separating the martyr's resurrection and the rest of the dead (vss. 11-15)
     
  17. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    The OT Saints share in what God had planned for NT Saints, so the dichotomy doesn't continue to exist. See Hebrews 11:39-40. Together with us they are made perfect!

    Tribulation Saints, OT Saints, NT Saints are all in this thing together! By faith we are justified, including OT Saints, who hadn't received what was promised. But we do, and together with us, so will they!
     
  18. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    The Rapture
    by Aristobulus (Roger) Allen

    The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. The idea that Jesus Christ will return for His true Church just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation in a secret gathering or "catching away" was an important part of Darby's teaching. The movement in which this teaching began originated in small groups in England and Ireland about 1828 and by 1831 was part of the official teaching of the Plymouth Brethren. By 1860 the "rapture" had made its way to the United States.

    In the late 1800's, America was fertile ground for a wide variety of religious extremists, most notably the Adventist movements. These movements, which produced new denominations, sects, and cults, almost always had as one of their chief tenets the belief that Christ was going to return to earth "very soon" and that they could tell you when. As the eschatological and apocalyptic teachings of the Plymouth Brethren entered this mix of religious fervor, some of their teachings became a permanent fixture within the newly formed sects. Among the many heresies of the "brethren" the Rapture was the most successful. It even went on to affect millions of people in denominations which had not yet been formed. Two examples of this are the Assemblies of God and the United Pentecostal Church which were not founded until early in the 20th century. At about this same time the Rapture made its way into the theology of the Southern Baptist Church, which had not previously known of the teaching.

    Today, prophecy pundits and "end-time" revivalists preach the Rapture as if it were established dogma from the time of Christ until the present. The truth is that the first historical reference to the Rapture doctrine comes from the Plymouth Brethren. Not only is the Rapture not found in the teachings of the Church, but even "end-time" heretics throughout the centuries never dreamed of proposing such a novel idea. For example, the 4th century Montanists, who preached both pre-millenialism and that they knew when Christ would return, never ventured so far as to create another 2nd coming of the Lord in a secret rapture.

    In all the writings of the Scriptures, the Early Fathers, and the Ecumenical Councils, there is no mention of two 2nd comings of Christ. In fact, the 2nd Ecumenical Council definitively states and places in the Nicene Creed these words: "He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom shall have no end." This council of the Church, held in A.D. 381 in Constantinople, pronounced for all time what we as Christianis believe about the 2nd coming of Christ. The Fathers of the Church wanted it to be crystal clear that when our Lord returns (a time which only God the Father knows- Mark 13:32). He will establish His rule on earth forever, not merely 1000 years. The council did not condemn the Rapture heresy because the teaching did not yet exist. Moreover, there is no mention of the teaching in either the early Medieval period or the Scholastic era.

    One might think that the Rapture is the product of the Reformation, since almost all of its adherents are Protestants, but not so. The student searches in vain to find the Rapture doctrine among the writings of Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox. John and Charles Wesley know nothing of the theory. Even the Puritans (some of the most radical of the radical Protestants) never heard of or wrote about the Rapture. As a matter of fact, not only do the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans deny such a teaching but all "mainstream" Protestants do as well. The Rapture is not to be found in the doctrinal statements of Presbyterians, Lutherans, or Methodists (at least not in the main bodies of each of these groups). If any of their individual members embrace the Rapture theory, it is because they have been influenced by rapturist TV preachers or have read one of the hundreds of books written on the subject in the last 35 years. It is not in the teachings of their respective churches.

    It seems strange to me that the Lord would not reveal, by the Holy Spirit, a teaching which the end-time prophets of today preach as a foundational dogma and a forgone conclusion. Not until 1831 was this "new truth" revealed and not until the 20th century was it popularized. How is it that the Apostles and the Early Fathers overlooked such an important eschatological event? Why is it not clearly spelled out in the Scriptures? The obvious answer is this: THE DOCTRINE KNOWN AS THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH DOES NOT EXIST! Like all other heresies it was and is the invention of men, not the teaching of the Church. Rather than listen to the doctrines of men, let us pay extremely close attention to our Lord's own words in the Gospels.

    When Jesus taught His Apostles about His glorious 2nd coming, these are the words He used: "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be (Matthew 24:27)". In the book of Acts, St. Luke tells us that when Jesus ascended into heaven, and the Apostles were gazing upward as the Lord rose among the clouds, two men in white apparel (presumed to be angels) said these words: "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven (Acts 1:11)". We are told here in Holy Scripture that exactly in the same way Jesus ascended into heaven He will return to earth. In other words, He will return in the clouds in the sky. That description doesn't sound like a "secret catching away" but rather a dynamic 2nd coming!

    To be sure, there will be a catching away of the saints on earth but this happens at the last trumpet sound (Revelation 11:15). Writing to the Christians in Thessalonica, St. Paul tells us what the 2nd coming (Greek- parousia) is like. "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)". The same words are used here to describe the catching up of Christians as is used to describe the 2nd coming of the Lord. Both occur in the clouds, in the air, and everyone on earth sees it happen. In other words, the so-called Rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ will happen at the same time.

    Perhaps the most vivid picture of our Lord's 2nd coming to earth is found in the words of St. John the Apostle. In the book of Revelation he writes: "Behold, He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, amen (Revelation 1:7)". Far from believing that the Lord will return "secretly" to rapture the Church 7 years before His 2nd coming, St. John says that every human being on earth will see the Lord descend from the clouds. Once again, here are the words of the Nicene Creed, the symbol and statement of faith for all Christians: "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kindgom shall have no end." The 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be in glory, not in secret. Then the Prince of Peace shall establish true peace, joy, and righteousness on the earth; "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea (Habakkuk 2:14)".

    Finally, the Rapture doctrine is dangerous because it teaches Christians that they will be spared all tribulation, wrath, and danger in the last days. The need for urgent preparation of one's heart and soul is diminished because Christians will be secretly taken away from all that pain. No need to worry, we'll just fly away. Unlike the Early Christians, most of whom were murdered by this world's authorities, the end-time Christians have a get-out-of-tribulation free card called the Rapture. Remember the words of St. Paul, "All those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Timothy 2:12)." And lastly, the words of the Lord in John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
     
  19. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    Someone between the 4th & 6th centuries wrote about the pretribulational rapture. Most ancient sources point to Ephraem the Syrian as the author of the statements, but at least one does not. Either way, the MS evidence goes back to the 4th-6th centuries, a far cry from saying Darby "invented" the doctrine. Besides, reformation scholars have no problem saying some important doctrines were "lost" for 1500 years. Who cares how long they were lost, so long as now they're found? And if you want some wacky interpretations of Scripture, just read the church "fathers" like Origen! If the Bible teaches a pretribulational rapture, and this thread has indicated that it does, then there is no problem in believing in one!

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  20. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    Bluefalcon

    Firstly; can you please name the "someone" between the fourth and sixth century who wrote about the pretribulation. Secondly; can you please cut and paste on the screen "Ephraem's view". And, can you show me the one's that are found that were lost for "fifteen hundred years". And thirdly; can you show me the most "ancient sources".
     
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