Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

[Amy.G]

God gives us a wonderful blessing allowing drugs for medication in the passage in question. That is the simple and most sensible interpretation of the passage.

Jesus was offered strong drink, but refused.
Strong drink was wine mixed with drugs used to ease the pain and suffering of those dying.


Mat 27:34 they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink.

 

[Dale-c]

You are destroying your credibility all over the place by not admitting you are wrong.

So much so that I have refrained from joining in on conversations where I agreed with you because I never knew where it might end up.

I have disagreed with many on the BB and never hesitated to join in when I agreed but this has gotten so ridiculous that I am afraid to ever take sides with SFIC.
He has dropped his credibility rating to well below 0.

 

[Amy.G]

So much so that I have refrained from joining in on conversations where I agreed with you because I never knew where it might end up.

I have disagreed with many on the BB and never hesitated to join in when I agreed but this has gotten so ridiculous that I am afraid to ever take sides with SFIC.
He has dropped his credibility rating to well below 0.

I have held back from getting involved in this thread because I don't want to jeopardize my friendship with anyone, including SFIC, but I find this strange interpretation to be very upsetting and I couldn't ignore it anymore. It's just plain wrong to say that Jesus who is the water of life is also the strong drink of wine mixed with drugs.
Sorry SFIC.

 

[Dale-c]

A disagreement does not jeopardize ones friendship with me.

I have at times been involved in two threads at once, arguing against a certain poster on place and arguing with him on another.

Tim for instance has a desire for the truth. But sometimes he is wrong.
He is still my friend.
I have a desire for the truth.
Sometimes I am wrong.
I am still his friend.

 

[Amy.G]

SFIC, I know you trust and respect the opinions of David Cloud, so here is an excerpt from Wayoflife.org regarding the verses in question.

Pr. 31:4-5 teaches, "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." The danger is obvious.

By the way, Pr. 31:6,7 give us the only legitimate use of alcoholic wine in Scripture. "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." This would be using it as an anesthetic; a pain killer. But this is not for everyone; he says in v. 6, "unto him that is ready to perish." Of course, they did not have all the pain killers that we have today. In our time, it would not be necessary to do this. We have many anesthetics available for those who are dying. Then, about the only thing available to the average person would have been some kind of alcohol. Alcohol is a depressant; it is not a stimulant, as some think. After several drinks, one gets dizzy; then he will pass out. So this passage teaches that alcoholic beverage would be only for the person who is ready to die; there would be no hope for his life. All that would be possible would be to ease his pain and help him forget his misery.

Link: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/bibleandwine.htm

Please reconsider your position on this.

 

[tinytim]

I will still side with SFIC when he is right... or at least we agree.
I have absolutely no animosity toward my brother in Christ.
But I have to state what I believe also.
My opinions are just as important as his...

I am against the abuse of alcohol. I will never drink the stuff.. but to belittle Christians that drink it moderately, I will not. And I will absolutely not equate Christ with Strong Drink.

That is sloppy hermeneutics at the very least, and blasphemy at the worst.

I understand what SFIC is trying to do.. .but it doesn't work when you have to be consistant throughout the whole book.

 

[gb93433]

Roger,

For today, I sincerely believe that is how we should apply it. Would you give heroin to the lost? or for the one dying, would you give a black widow spider?

I have read through several pages of postings and find your application and interpretation the same. The correct interpretation of a passage has nothing to do with anyone's opinion or how they might apply it. It has only one correct interpretation--the one God wanted. Historically it has one correct interpretation.
It is not a case of what I often hear at churches and that it "What does it mean to you?" It has nothing t do with what it means to me or anyone else. It is simply, "what does it mean. This is not a case sensus plenior.

I cannot imagine anyone telling another that he needs some strong drink and that would ever be interpreted as needing Jesus. In constrast they would think the person has something wrong with them.

 

[tinytim]

A disagreement does not jeopardize ones friendship with me.

I have at times been involved in two threads at once, arguing against a certain poster on place and arguing with him on another.

Tim for instance has a desire for the truth. But sometimes he is wrong.
He is still my friend.
I have a desire for the truth.
Sometimes I am wrong.
I am still his friend.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I AM SOMETIMES WRONG!!! HMMMMPH!
:laugh:

I will admit I am sometimes wrong.. but not on this one.

The verse means to alleviate pain from the dying person.
In the past, alcohol as a medication was used... today, we have stronger pain killers that work better today... so I would even say we should not even give alcohol to perishing people today... but morephine, etc.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I see many have still not studied the passage out carefully and prayerfully. Perish in that passage does not relate at all to dying. It is wandering. It is someone who is choosing the path to destruction.

Your eisegesis is amazing.

 

[gb93433]

I see many have still not studied the passage out carefully and prayerfully. Perish in that passage does not relate at all to dying. It is wandering. It is someone who is choosing the path to destruction.

Your eisegesis is amazing.

I gave you a lexical interpretation from BDB. BDB is the accepted authority among Hebrew scholars. And you consider yourself above them in the sense of knowinmg Hebrew better than they? That is your choice but don't expect us to buy your constantly twisting interpretation.

I am not in any way a Hebrew scholar so I must rely on others in the body of Christ who have studied those things and are more knowledgeable than me.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I see many have still not studied the passage out carefully and prayerfully. Perish in that passage does not relate at all to dying. It is wandering. It is someone who is choosing the path to destruction.

Your eisegesis is amazing.

Sorry Ron, you are totally and completely wrong on this one. Can you give me one Hebrew scholar who agrees with you? Or are you the only believer in history to get this right?

I will NEVER refer to Christ as the "strong drink" for I abhor strong drink.

 

[ccrobinson]

I see many have still not studied the passage out carefully and prayerfully. Perish in that passage does not relate at all to dying. It is wandering. It is someone who is choosing the path to destruction.

Your eisegesis is amazing.

You say that "Jesus is the strong drink" and ridicule somebody else for eisegesis???? You've got to be kidding.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Tell you what, cc. You give them the alcohol, I will share with them the water of life.

What can the alcohol do for the lost?
What can Christ, the water of life, do for the lost?

Now, which is stronger?

 

[Amy.G]

SFIC, what did you think of my post of David Cloud's interpretation? Is it eisegesis?

 

[annsni]

All those who are lost and/or perishing absolutely need Christ. However, this passage does not speak of the state of their soul. When my mother was dying of breast cancer, and the cancer was causing her tremendous pain due to the cancer being in her spine, ribs, lungs, liver and brain, I sat and read Psalms to her. I could tell, even though she was unconscious, that God's Word was a balm to her soul. However, she was also in extreme pain and needed additionally morphine to cut the pain enough that she was comfortable. The doctor asked if we would be willing to cut the morphine so she could "wake up" and at first we said "no" but he convinced us telling us that he would give her morphine in her IV if she showed any sign of distress. When she started moaning and writhing in her bed, we asked the doctor for morphine and he said "No. She hasn't woken up yet." My brother went after the doctor across the room, pinned him to the wall and said "Give my mother the morphine now or I'll pray to God that your mother will die this way." She received the morphine and was able to die the following day without the excrutiating pain.

THAT is what this verse is addressing.

 

[Rubato 1]

I've never heard this before. Are there other verses in the Bible that support this view?

The verse I was referring to was
Revelation 14:10 - "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"
And, to a lesser extent,
Revelation 15:7 - And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
I know these could be open to further comment, but they serve my purpose here.

 

[Amy.G]

All those who are lost and/or perishing absolutely need Christ. However, this passage does not speak of the state of their soul. When my mother was dying of breast cancer, and the cancer was causing her tremendous pain due to the cancer being in her spine, ribs, lungs, liver and brain, I sat and read Psalms to her. I could tell, even though she was unconscious, that God's Word was a balm to her soul. However, she was also in extreme pain and needed additionally morphine to cut the pain enough that she was comfortable. The doctor asked if we would be willing to cut the morphine so she could "wake up" and at first we said "no" but he convinced us telling us that he would give her morphine in her IV if she showed any sign of distress. When she started moaning and writhing in her bed, we asked the doctor for morphine and he said "No. She hasn't woken up yet." My brother went after the doctor across the room, pinned him to the wall and said "Give my mother the morphine now or I'll pray to God that your mother will die this way." She received the morphine and was able to die the following day without the excrutiating pain.

THAT is what this verse is addressing.

Yes it is. My father was given morphine as well when he was dying. It's called compassion.

 

[ccrobinson]

Tell you what, cc. You give them the alcohol, I will share with them the water of life.

This is a red herring that has nothing to do with the discussion.

What can the alcohol do for the lost?
What can Christ, the water of life, do for the lost?

Now, which is stronger?

The Scripture verse in question is not talking about the lost. You are completely and utterly wrong. Therefore, since your questions refer to your wrong interpretation, they are completely invalid.

Roger posed some very good questions that you haven't addressed.

In the past, you've said that saying that Christ drank alcohol is blasphemy. So, how is equating Jesus Christ with strong drink not blasphemy?

 

[tinytim]

What does that verse have to do with the lost?

Yes, the lost need the Living water... not alcohol.

But a dying man, or woman with their body racked with pain needs pain medication.

This verse has nothing to do with Christ or salvation.
Just because you want it to, does not make it so.
And what does the phrase "and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts" mean...?

 

[readmore]

I don't know why you all are so incredulous. By bringing up this verse, Dale has brought a worthy challenge to Sfic's hermeneutical method that says that all proverbs (from the Bible) are concrete promises and commands.

True to the first half of his pseudonym, Sfic has taken the only interpretation of the verse that is coherent in his belief system. To admit that the Bible tells you in some cases to give a person alcohol is a complete contradiction with the "Look not thou" of chapter 23.