Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Brother Roger,

I know you don't drink, and I do not think you would purposely say to go out and buy Jack Daniels.

But in a round about way that is what you are sanctioning. When you say that the Scripture allows strong drink for one who is dying, you are saying 'alcohol will help you, the Bible say it will.'

So in a way you are indeed sanctioning it.

Like I would any other medication.

I am truly sorry to hear of you illness Ron, but I won't stand for being accused of advocating recreational drug use, be it alcohol or any other drug.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have never been one for liking medicines. I shudder to think I would have to be on medicines for the rest of my life.

I had to take Toprox Xl back several years ago for low blood pressure problems. I also took Fleurinef (sp) and Atenolol for the same problems.

After 4 months, I took myself off of them (not one of them were working) and relied on Christ to keep me... and He has.

After taking myself off of the meds and relying on Christ, I was able to stand and walk away from the wheelchair that had me bound. I don't want to return to that again either.

Thanx for the prayers. much appreciated.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

For the record, gb. Christ is indeed mentioned in Proverbs 30:4 when Agur asks the name of His (God's) Son.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

For the record, gb. Christ is indeed mentioned in Proverbs 30:4 when Agur asks the name of His (God's) Son.

I did not say that Christ was not mentioned in Proverbs - I said He was not in the passage in question?

It is a simple question. The Bible says: "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."

Is that the word of God or not? Do we obey it or change it to fit our opinions?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Roger, my last post was to gb in reference to his incessant claim that Christ is not found in Proverbs.

as to your question, I obey it. I give them Christ. He is the strong drink they need. He can do far more for them than a bottle of alcohol.

 

[Dale-c]

Is that the word of God or not? Do we obey it or change it to fit our opinions?

Which was exactly the point of my thread. It was not a thread about alcohol per se.
It was showing that if you do not take the Proverbs properly you are going to come up with all kinds of problems.
The very reason why SFIC cannot admit the clear teaching of proverbs 31:6 and 7 is that they conflict with other Proverbs when used with his way of interpretation.

The Bible NEVER EVER condones the abuse of alcohol.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Roger, my last post was to gb in reference to his incessant claim that Christ is not found in Proverbs.

as to your question, I obey it. I give them Christ. He is the strong drink they need. He can do far more for them than a bottle of alcohol.

So you do say that Christ is the strong drink talked about in the passage. I appreciate your explanation of the passage. So this passage is not literal, but figurative and should be read this way?

6 Give [Christ] to the one who is perishing,
and [Christ] to those in bitter distress;

7 let them drink [Christ] and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.


Now, how do we know when "strong drink" is Christ and when it is alcohol?

 

[Rubato 1]

I think we could agree that drinking is not God's ideal way of dealing with our problems: poor are supposed to work hard and trust God; if they are of 'heavy hearts, they are to sing and meditate on God's Word.

If this much is agreed upon, and after consideration of vs. 4-5 (for any of us who are in authority), then we can make the hypothesis that those 'ready to perish' are those who are dying; not only dying, but lost and about to 'perish'. Give him strong drink because that is the last bit of comfort he will ever see!

This verse is saying to me that the only ones who should drink are those who are miserable, 'bitter of soul' (heavy hearts), and about to perish.

 

[gb93433]

as to your question, I obey it. I give them Christ. He is the strong drink they need. He can do far more for them than a bottle of alcohol.

Just because you give out Christ and they do not receive him does that mean their pain will still be forgotten?

Christians who are dying may be in great pain.

The hospital regularly gives strong drugs to people who are near death.

Years ago when I was in the hospital the doctor told me that I could have easily died. I was in far more serious condition than I thought I was. In fact that week someone died of what I had. One of my friends who is a surgeon came to see me in the hospital and told me later that while he was visiting me I could have died in front of him because he knew my condition at that moment. At the time the nurses came in very calmly and did what they needed to do without letting me know the seriousness of the matter. My body was in such pain that it felt like I was constantly being shocked with an electric prod. It was very painful. I know what pain relief felt like. I was in such pain that I welcomed anything to help with the pain. I already had Christ at the time and still have him. Don't think for one minute that I did not pray about my condition.

 

[gb93433]

posted twice

 

[tinytim]

I would be interested in knowing if SFIC believes that pain medication should be withheld from Christians who are dying, and are in pain.

* I am not talking about alcohol... but pain medication like morephine.

 

[Dale-c]

Tim, have you noticed the irony here?
SFIC is so dogmatic about alcohol being totally evil that he has now called Christ the very thing he hates just to maintain his argument!

Look at his signature, he has just called Christ the devils way to you!

 

[Dale-c]

Here is the signature:

Strong drink is not only the way to the devil, but the devil's way into you - Adam Clarke

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So you do say that Christ is the strong drink talked about in the passage. I appreciate your explanation of the passage. So this passage is not literal, but figurative and should be read this way?

6 Give [Christ] to the one who is perishing,
and [Christ] to those in bitter distress;

7 let them drink [Christ] and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.


Now, how do we know when "strong drink" is Christ and when it is alcohol?

Roger,

For today, I sincerely believe that is how we should apply it. Would you give heroin to the lost? or for the one dying, would you give a black widow spider?

If one does a careful and prayerful study, taking verses 6 and 7 into context with verses 8 and 9, one will see that it is not condoning the consumption of alcohol at all.

When you first read verses 6 and 7, they appear to contradict the clear teaching found in Proverbs 23:31 where Solomon clearly states we are not to have anything to do with alcoholic beverages when he said, "Look not thou...".

However, it is clear when taken in context it is speaking of those who have rebelliously chosen the road to destruction rather than the way of life.

Perish in this passage does not mean die as many want to make it mean. It means wander, fugitive, void, nomad, destroy.

God is not willing that any should wander through life without Him. That is why He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins... and not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.

As to Solomon's day, no, I do not believe that even alcohol was an option except for those who God had turned over to a reprobate mind... one that even His Word could not persuade of Him.

They chose misery instead of life and peace. God gave them the desire of their heart.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Tim, have you noticed the irony here?
SFIC is so dogmatic about alcohol being totally evil that he has now called Christ the very thing he hates just to maintain his argument!

Look at his signature, he has just called Christ the devils way to you!

Quit doing the work of the devil, Dale. Falsely accusing me of such blasphemy. Has the alcohol clouded your mind so much as to deny Christ is the strong drink that men need today?

 

[Dale-c]

Quit doing the work of the devil, Dale. Falsely accusing me of such blasphemy. Has the alcohol clouded your mind so much as to deny Christ is the strong drink that men need today?

I didn't say it. You did.
I really doubt alcohol has clouded my mind.
I have never in my life had more than a small glass at one time.
I have had less than an ounce in the last month.
I am not a drunkard and I really would appreciate it if you would stop implying that I am.

It was YOU that said

Strong drink is not only the way to the devil, but the devil's way into you - Adam Clarke

And then say that Proverbs 31 when it mentions strong drink is talking about Christ.

You are twisting the scripture to fit your pet doctrines.

My position does not require any twisting anywhere.

 

[Dale-c]

When you first read verses 6 and 7, they appear to contradict the clear teaching found in Proverbs 23:31 where Solomon clearly states we are not to have anything to do with alcoholic beverages when he said, "Look not thou...".

I am rather tired of you quoting "look not thou..."

So? Exodus 20 says "commit Adultery"
So what is your point?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No, I have not twisted the Scripture at all, Dale.

Have you ever heard of application?

Adam Clarke's statement concerning strong drink was speaking of alcohol.

My application of strong drink was Christ. And I did say He was better than any alcoholic drink that one could give to the lost... but you in your hatred for the truth I present, deny that and twist my words.

That is ok. Christ is on my side on this one.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I am rather tired of you quoting "look not thou..."

So? Exodus 20 says "commit Adultery"
So what is your point?

You don't like the Word of God? It is the Word of God that gave that command.

Exodus does not tell us to commit adultery. More Scripture twisting by you, Dale?

 

[tinytim]

Roger,

For today, I sincerely believe that is how we should apply it. Would you give heroin to the lost? or for the one dying, would you give a black widow spider?

If one does a careful and prayerful study, taking verses 6 and 7 into context with verses 8 and 9, one will see that it is not condoning the consumption of alcohol at all.

When you first read verses 6 and 7, they appear to contradict the clear teaching found in Proverbs 23:31 where Solomon clearly states we are not to have anything to do with alcoholic beverages when he said, "Look not thou...".

However, it is clear when taken in context it is speaking of those who have rebelliously chosen the road to destruction rather than the way of life.

Perish in this passage does not mean die as many want to make it mean. It means wander, fugitive, void, nomad, destroy.

God is not willing that any should wander through life without Him. That is why He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins... and not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.

As to Solomon's day, no, I do not believe that even alcohol was an option except for those who God had turned over to a reprobate mind... one that even His Word could not persuade of Him.

They chose misery instead of life and peace. God gave them the desire of their heart.

So instead of admitting you are wrong on your interpretation of alcohol, you redefine words. Even to the point that you have invented a new meaning to strong drink...

Ladies and Gents, "Strong drink" in the Bible now refers to Jesus Christ....
because SFIC says so.

"Perish" No longer means to die.. it now means something else...

But we are really not surprised because he has been changing meanings of words all along... he has always said "wine" does not mean wine... unless it suits his hermeneutics...

In another thread he has tried to convince people that the word "doctrine" does not mean teaching....

If this wasn't coming from a preacher, it would be hilarious... but coming from a man that says he stands for truth, it is sad the way he has to redefine words in order to uphold his errant view of truth.

So, would you take morphine if you were dying?
If you were a Dr... would you prescribe Oxycontin to a person on their death bed?

If you were alive during the civil war, and would have fought in it... got shot, and had to have surgery, would you have denied the whiskey that was used as an anesthetic? And which side would you have fought for?