Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

[Dale-c]

True to the first half of his pseudonym, Sfic has taken the only interpretation of the verse that is coherent in his belief system. To admit that the Bible tells you in some cases to give a person alcohol is a complete contradiction with the "Look not thou" of chapter 23.

And even then, it is only when you leave it at "Look not thou" that it is a problem.

The preceding verses and the continuation show a context of abuse.

I might add that i do not believe Proverbs 31 6 and 7 are even talking about what would be considered moderate at other times.
I believe for the perishing, a large dose of strong drink is needed.
A dose that at normal times would be wrong and would be considered drunkenness, just as getting high on morphine at normal times would be wrong.

 

[tinytim]

And because of this Dale, SFIC is in a conundrum because he believes that if a Christian dies in a drunken state they will go to Heaven.

This is why he will not answer me about being under the influence of pain medication upon death.

It challenges his belief system, so he is forced to invent new ways to interpret scripture.. the problem is, when we look at new ways to interpret scripture, it has to be consistent with the whole of scripture.

And thus, he has a problem.

He cannot consistently interpret proverbs as promises...
He has to pick and choose, which is private interpretation.

thus violating proper biblical hermeneutics.

Let's look at this scripture from these questions which represent the proper way to interpret a passage...

Scripture: ________________________
Author: ________________________ Date of writing: _________
Type of writing: (literary style) ___________________________


Lexical (definitions of words):




Historical/cultural influences:




Theological (Other scripture in the Bible that are connected to this passage):




Context of surrounding scripture:




Orthodox (What has been the teaching of the church?):




How does passage this apply to me?

 

[Salamander]

Um, I won't take time to read over 11 pages to ask this question, it may have already been addressed, but here goes:

What about the preceding verses and their admonitions? Were they taken into comnsideration before this thread was begun?

Proverbs 31:The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.Pro 31:2What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
Pro 31:3Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
Pro 31:4¶[It is] not for kings, O Lemuel, [it is] not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:Pro 31:5Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

I could yank multiple verses out of context and concoct all sorts of false doctrine.

This has all to do with those in authority as comparable to those who are persihing and the poor in the area of alcohol, BUT! it seems it is metaphorical in that the persishing need it "straight and strong!" / strong drink,and the poor need some joy/ wine.

Considering other admonitions found in Proverbs regarding strong drink and wine/ alcohol, I find it hard to believe this is permissiveness to administer them and is a direct contradiction.

 

[tinytim]

Scripture:
Author: ________________________ Date of writing: _________
Type of writing: (literary style): poetry

Lexical (definitions of words):


Perish =
Strong drink =
Wine =
poverty=

Historical/cultural influences:
How did the Hebrews deal with dying people in pain

Theological (Other scripture in the Bible that are connected to this passage):
What does Strong drink refer to when it is used in the Bible?



Context of surrounding scripture:
this is hard because Proverbs are not often connected



Orthodox (What has been the teaching of the church?):
We need to look at this



How does passage this apply to me?

 

[Salamander]

And because of this Dale, SFIC is in a conundrum because he believes that if a Christian dies in a drunken state they will go to Heaven.

This is why he will not answer me about being under the influence of pain medication upon death.

It challenges his belief system, so he is forced to invent new ways to interpret scripture.. the problem is, when we look at new ways to interpret scripture, it has to be consistent with the whole of scripture.

And thus, he has a problem.

He cannot consistently interpret proverbs as promises...
He has to pick and choose, which is private interpretation.

thus violating proper biblical hermeneutics.

Let's look at this scripture from these questions which represent the proper way to interpret a passage...

Scripture: ________________________
Author: ________________________ Date of writing: _________
Type of writing: (literary style) ___________________________


Lexical (definitions of words):




Historical/cultural influences:




Theological (Other scripture in the Bible that are connected to this passage):




Context of surrounding scripture:




Orthodox (What has been the teaching of the church?):




How does passage this apply to me?

Too bad God hasn't been to your hermeneutics class!:laugh:

Learn that which is literal verses that which is metaphorical and then learn the literal is metaphorical in many,many cases to prove that which is right about that which is righteousness.

God doesn't tell us one thing and then contradict himself allowing others to go against what He condemned.

 

[Salamander]

Scripture:
Author: ________________________ Date of writing: _________
Type of writing: (literary style): poetry

Lexical (definitions of words):


Perish =
Strong drink =
Wine =
poverty=

Historical/cultural influences:
How did the Hebrews deal with dying people in pain

Theological (Other scripture in the Bible that are connected to this passage):
What does Strong drink refer to when it is used in the Bible?



Context of surrounding scripture:
this is hard because Proverbs are not often connected



Orthodox (What has been the teaching of the church?):
We need to look at this



How does passage this apply to me?

OK, now answer your last hermeneutic?

 

[tinytim]

Too bad God hasn't been to your hermeneutics class!:laugh:

Learn that which is literal verses that which is metaphorical and then learn the literal is metaphorical in many,many cases to prove that which is right about that which is righteousness.

God doesn't tell us one thing and then contradict himself allowing others to go against what He condemned.

I am sorry you feel that properly dividing the word of God is a laughing matter.

This is why so many heresies rise out of churches...
People make fun of others that know how to handle their weapon.

You are right, God does not contradict himself.
So, why would he say to give it here, and not give it in another scripture.

OH< wait.. Scripture deals with moderation... and is against abuse..
And even though he says to give it here, it is for medication.
Still not abuse.

 

[webdog]

God doesn't tell us one thing and then contradict himself allowing others to go against what He condemned.

Exactly. That is why the consumption of alcohol is not prohibited, only the abuse thereof.

 

[tinytim]

OK, now answer your last hermeneutic?

The first ones must be answered before you can apply it to today.

You must find out what the scripture meant to the original readers... take that meaning and apply it to today.

I left it off intentionally so that everyone can work through it.

I have said earlier how I would apply it.

 

[Dale-c]

God doesn't tell us one thing and then contradict himself allowing others to go against what He condemned.

AMEN! Which is why the only consistent approach is moderation

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And because of this Dale, SFIC is in a conundrum because he believes that if a Christian dies in a drunken state they will go to Heaven.

tim,

I would appreciate it if you would stop with the lies.

I have never, ever said a person who dies in a drunken state will go to heaven.

A person who dies in a drunken state, whether he or she claims to be the best friend of Jesus Christ, whether they have made a profession of faith or not... will end up in that lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

A drunkard will in no wise enter heaven.

 

[Salamander]

I am sorry you feel that properly dividing the word of God is a laughing matter.

I'm sorry you would take my words a form them into one of your lies.

This is why so many heresies rise out of churches...
People make fun of others that know how to handle their weapon.

Braggart, thou shall soon hang thyself when given enough rope.

You are right, God does not contradict himself.
So, why would he say to give it here, and not give it in another scripture.

Because you're trying to apply literally something which God literally condemned. You should have learned that from your hermeneutics class.

OH< wait.. Scripture deals with moderation... and is against abuse..
And even though he says to give it here, it is for medication.
Still not abuse.

Here, strong drink as given to the perishing, could very well be considered anything to relieve pain, and wine to be consiodewred anything to bring pure joy.

Misapplications come when you are taking this as permissiveness to concume alcohol against Proverbs 20:1 along with others verses.

Moderation doesn't include indulgence in things condemned by the Lord for he certainly knows that moderation will lead to excess in addictive substances and immoral activites.

How elated you seem to see yourself here.

 

[webdog]

Here, strong drink as given to the perishing, could very well be considered anything to relieve pain, and wine to be consiodewred anything to bring pure joy.

You bash Tim's hermeunetics, but claim the above? Talk about eisegesis! Were you in the same classs as SFIC?

 

[Salamander]

tim,

I would appreciate it if you would stop with the lies.

I have never, ever said a person who dies in a drunken state will go to heaven.

A person who dies in a drunken state, whether he or she claims to be the best friend of Jesus Christ, whether they have made a profession of faith or not... will end up in that lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

A drunkard will in no wise enter heaven.

What if he were introveniously injected with alcohol on his deathbed?

The term "drunkard" refers to one who habitually abuses alcohol, not some one who got drunk attempting to relive physical pain knowing they were about to die.

I will agree that sometimes doctors and well-meaning persons don't want the dying to suffer excruciating pain and will overdose many, so please don't misunderstand what I said.

 

[Dale-c]

tim,

I would appreciate it if you would stop with the lies.

I have never, ever said a person who dies in a drunken state will go to heaven.

A person who dies in a drunken state, whether he or she claims to be the best friend of Jesus Christ, whether they have made a profession of faith or not... will end up in that lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

A drunkard will in no wise enter heaven.

I think it was a typo.
I am pretty sure that Tim meant just what you just said that a person that dies in a drunken state CAN"T go to heaven.


Do you believe a person who dies just after drinking 4 ounces of wine at 13% alcohol is going to hell?

 

[webdog]

Do you believe a person who dies just after drinking 4 ounces of wine at 13% alcohol is going to hell?

Is the wine, 'wine'...or is the wine the Holy Spirit?

 

[Salamander]

You bash Tim's hermeunetics, but claim the above? Talk about eisegesis! Were you in the same classs as SFIC?

I didn't bash anything, thou amphibious canine.

I made specific reference to the metaphorical aspect, something that rocketed way over the doghouse and its reflection blurred by the waves of adversity in your pond.:laugh:

 

[webdog]

I didn't bash anything, thou amphibious canine.

I made specific reference to the metaphorical aspect, something that rocketed way over the doghouse and its reflection blurred by the waves of adversity in your pond.:laugh:

...yet there is nothing metaphoric whatsoever in the text we are discussing, my slimy amphibious friend.

 

[Salamander]

Is the wine, 'wine'...or is the wine the Holy Spirit?

Wine is fermented and the Holy Spirit is never fermented.:godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

...yet there is nothing metaphoric whatsoever in the text we are discussing, my slimy amphibious friend.

:laugh: May I crawl out from under my moisture laden environment/ rock, and ask you to show us how Proverbs are never metaphorical?