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Purgatory?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by nate, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Mojoala,
    Even though I disagree with your idea, I am quite amazed at your approach as you tried to find the biblical support from the Bible.

    I could answer all your argument but want to add one more on Malachi 3:2-3


    But who may abide the day of his coming ? and who shall stand when he appeareth ? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers ' soap:
    3:3
    And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.


    Jesus Christ has purged our sins at the Cross and we have become the Priests to serve God as we can read in 1 Peter 2:5-9.

    There is no purging anywhere other than at the Cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paid everything for our sins, which was sufficient in God's eyes.

    If Purgatory exist indeed, then the only way to get out of there would be to rely on the Blood of Jesus Christ. Why don't Roman Catholics do it on this world while they are alive here?
    Why don't they believe it completely instead of half way?
     
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Majoala, .

    Jude 23
    And others save them with fear, pulling them out of the fire

    The unbelievers, the Hell bound people are in the fire, and we must save them out of the fire.


    Does it talk about the Purgatory?
    I am quite amazed at the great imagination in interpretting Bible.
     
  3. Living_stone

    Living_stone New Member

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    2 Mac is prayer on behalf of. You seemed to call into question prayer to, however. So that is what I wsa explaining.

    Those two, because you called them into question, but they were believed in in by the earliest Christains.

    You said "2 Mac has NO prayers to the dead - the RCC DOES!". On the whole, a statement I agree with. But you seemed to be implying that the RCC (and Orthodox by natural extension) only have passages in 2 Mac to try to support prayers to the dead. In truth, I have no idea why you tried to make that link - I just wanted to show that the idea is present in classical Christianity and is visible in the scirpture - so it's not just a Roman Catholic thing.

    The elders in heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth to God in heaven in the form of incense in Rev 5. The angels do the same three chapters later.

    Paul does.

    In 2 Tim 1 Paul prays "May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day."

    Onesiphorus was his friend, and he entrusted his family to the prayers of Timothy and the others. Onesiphorus was dead, and Paul was praying that he might find mercy on the day of judgement.

    It is my understanding that mortal sin requires:
    1)Sufficient knowledge,
    2)Grave matter, and
    3)Full consent.

    Tokens were found on his men. It seemed apparent this is why they died - as punishment. However we do not know the full extent of their idol worship. I'm not going to judge their souls or discrdit the possiblity to heaven. It is not given to me to judge them (but 'tis given me to speculate and hope that even they might find the fullness of salvation).

    I never got away from it.

    What do you define as a mortal sin? 1 John 5 makes it pretty clear that some sin is deadly, some not. What sin is deadly even to a Christian?

    What do you want me to say? They believed in the resurrection. If the dead are not raised then Christ is not raised. If CHrist is not raise, Paul says, then more than those prayers are "of no benefit at all" and in vain.

    Bearing in mind that God's plan for us includes resurrection, Judas acted good and just trying to do what he could to help his men, even in death.

    How? And again, while you may think that this is a sctrictly RC thing, it's not.

    The "mention of transfer" is in the fact that they prayed. Those in heaven don't need prayers for them. Those in hell don't either.

    w00t. What do you think he was doing, then? Give me your take.

    Judged in this life, as God was apt to do in the OT (and in the NT, remember Ananias and Sapphira). It says nothign of their souls.

    They were benefitted in death that they might have the ressurection. If there is no resurrection and we remain dead, then his actions were in vain. There is a resurrection, and so prayer on behalf of the dead are not in vain but are just. It's not that hard to grasp.

    I don't see thw word "sleep" in that passage.

    Then here is the crux of the matter. It is my understanding that the benefit is not "apart from" the resurrection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholics (and the Orthodox) do such things only because of the resurrection. They realize that without the resurrection, "it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead." Because of the resurrection it is not.

    Well, we can agree on the first part. But:

    "When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev 5:8)" Here we see the elders in heaven presenting our prayers to God.

    " Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne." (rev 8:3)

    The angels join in offering these prayers - which we've agreed they can do - which the elders in heaven were already presenting at a time before the resurrection.


    Have they mentioned Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum?

    Actually, by name which books do they list other than Isaiah?
     
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    1 Peter 3:19- and 4:6

    These 2 verses are the only resort for Purgatory theory, I think.

    1 Pet 4:6

    This talks about the spiritually dead people as we read in

    1 Cor 5:5
    To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    1 Tim 5:6
    But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth .


    1 Pet 3:19

    The preaching is limited to the dead during the Noah's Ark and there is no indication that they accepted the Gospel and were saved thereby. This may mean that Jesus declared the truth. The word used here is kerrusso, which may be better translated as "declare or announce"
     
  5. Living_stone

    Living_stone New Member

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    It's said he went to those men who were obstinante in noah's day. It doesn't say that he went only to them, just that he went to them in particular.

    So Jesus went down to say "Nyah nyah nyah?"

    Kerrusso can easily mean "preach", John the Baptist and Jesus in his earthly ministry both "kerrussoed"

    Plus, the text bears this out: 1 Pet 4:6 says "For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God."

    They were given a chance.
     
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    So, did they accept the Gospel ? and were they baptized ?


    It is just the human extended imagination.

    What we have to be careful about is the notion that people can postpone the salvation and refuse it until after death, which is nowhere found in the Bible.

    1 Pet 4:6 doesn't say any chance after death. Can you refute what I explained and prove that it is not directed to the spiritually dead, but to the physically dead?
     
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Agreed. But as a result of this, are you free from sin ie: do you now never sin?
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. NOTHING here about "praying FOR the dead"
    #2. NOTHING here about MOVING the dead from on place TO another.
    #3. NOTHING here about preaching TO the dead!
    #4. NOTHING here about "excess suffering of OTHER dead people be applied to the wicked who were destroyed in the flood".

    (Just in case that bit of story telling by or RC friends gets you lost).

    .
    8 people - That is true - 8 were saved by entering the Ark. (And corresponding to that Baptism now saves you - the appeal to God for a clean conscience).
    However the focus of the text is NOT on preaching to the 8 but to the wicked that were lost - in rebellion in the time of Noah WHEN the ark was being built.

    Notice this SECOND example focuses SPECIFICIALLY on the wicked of Noah's day who LIVED "when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark". They obviously are examples of suffering for doing what is wrong.
    Notice also that the focus is NOT on the saints of the OT – and preaching to them – rather it is on the “disobedient” – the wicked, the lost generation DURING the time of the building of the Ark WHEN the patience of God kept waiting. It is to them (to the Lost Wicked world) that the Spirit of Christ in the OT was drawing and speaking JUST as He does to us today. By contrast the SAINTS of that day went into the ark while all those rebellious disobedient wicked perished and will die the second death. And “Corresponding to That – Baptism NOW saves you”

    And Noah - an example of suffering for doing what is right. Saved by the Ark and obedient to the Spirit of Christ.

    The Spirit of Christ has already been stated by Peter (1Pet 1) as having gone to people in the OT and ministering to them WHILE they lived.

    Peter directs us away from thinking of the "magic waters of baptism"! INSTEAD of a "magic sacrament" the REAL saving aspect is in the heart's knowing - deliberate - active "APPEAL to God for a good conscience". THAT is the sense in which baptism saves for it is a public symbol that the sinner has already made that appeal.

    Saved - Salvation to those who BELIEVE. The fact that one who BELIEVES and is saved will CONTINUE to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation JUST as stated above - at the time we believe.

     
  9. nate

    nate New Member

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    Agreed. But as a result of this, are you free from sin ie: do you now never sin? </font>[/QUOTE]Also Eliyahu did the Old Flesh die when you accepted Christ? That's how I view Purgatory a place where my tainted human desires,lusts, and sin nature is burned away to present a holy sacrifice to God.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I see - and you want to "get out of having" that old self removed right? You want all your friends and loved ones to pray foryou that the "Excess sufferings of OTHERS" may be applied to your case WITHOUT YOU having to suffer -- and then you will be released from mythical purgatory.

    You want them to "earn plenary indulgences" (blank checks) from the church to write against her own "spiritual bank of suffering" for in this mythology the church is in charge of that bank account to some extent and can write spiritual checks against it.

    But ALAS! The RCC claims to be MORE merciful THAN GOD! For she says that we should earn MULTIPLE PLENARY indulgences for the SAME Tormented loved one because we CAN NOT BE SURE That Christ will endorse the first check EARNED by us and then written by the RCC.

    So IF this INDULGENCE is NOT YOU enduring your OWN punishment in purgatory - (so there IS A WAY of escape) how is it that the blood of Christ proves INSUFFICIENT to do what the "checking account of the RCC" CAN do??!!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

    Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century
    So there we have it on two short pages (49-50) of that telling work done by a Catholic historian - revealing the ongoing evolutionary process in the church that brings us to where we are today.

    Who finally stopped Rome’s persecution of the Christians?

    How much influence did Emperor Constantine have on the RCC “really”. How much of a role in moving it past the point of merely “Not persecuted” ?

     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Roman Catholic statements on Purgatory:

    The Catechism states

    1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

    The Catechism states
    The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:
    Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Faith Explained
    Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
    Of course this assume the souls are in fact still suffering - for if they have already gone to heaven - it would not benefit them at all - and thus we have "time".

    The Faith Explained:. Page 177
     
  14. Living_stone

    Living_stone New Member

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    So, from all of that text, we've established that Catholics belive purgatory:

    -Is part of Christ's atonement for us
    -Purifies us that we might be perfect
    -Doesn't have an actual physicality being pre-resurrection, so it's not a place of phycial torment per se
    -Doesn't last necessarily a set ammount of time. It could be instantaneous, but seem longer or shorter due to intensity of our need to be finally pure.

    So...what in there contradicts the bible?

    And where does the bible say it's the only source of revelation or christian instruction?
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. Purgatory is a non-biblical OTHER state/place OTHER than hell and OTHER than heaven totally "invented" by the traditions of man.

    2. Purgatory is a man-made idea that MEN must pay for that which CHRIST failes to pay for -- the SUFFERING and TORMENT debt OWED for venial sins.

    3. the man-made doctrine of Purgatory forms the foundation for the man-made doctrine of indulgences.

    4. The man-made doctrine of Purgatory and Indulgences claims the RCC is MORE MERCIFUL THAN GOD because IT will write "checks" (plenary indulgences even) for souls IT claims are in torment in purgatory - but then asks that everyone earn MULTIPLE indulgences for the SAME tormented soul - because God can not be trusted to endorse the check the RCC has written.

    5. The man-made doctrine of Purgatory was invented in the dark ages to control the masses who thought that the RCC could "make stuff up" and it would be "real".

    6. The man-made doctrine of Purgatory places the RCC in the role of God to forgive sins (forgive the suffering and torment DUE to sin in purgatory) - AND YET the RCC DOES NOT simply write a blank check out for all mankind AS IF the RCC had some reason for making its own members STRIVE to EARN indulgences!!

    7. RCC members are noted here as trying to place a nice face on this - WHILE the RCC insists that EVEN Catholics must try to get loved ones OUT of Purgatory as fast as possible!

    The Bible makes NO mention of Purgatory.

    The Bible says GOD ALONE can forgive sins!

    The BIBLE provides for NO torment to our loved ones IN death.

    The Bible NEVER tells us to work on behalf of the dead to SAVE THEM from what God is doing to them.

    THe list is endless.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Living_stone

    Living_stone New Member

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    It's not non-biblical. We die still able to and desireing sin. When we are resurrected we will not have this inclination anymore for we will be in Heaven. Therefore some change happens. THAT is the bulk of the entire doctrine. We are perfected after this life.

    Traditionally prayer have been said for the dead since the very beginning, but that's a seperate issue.

    It's not us paying anything. Its us becomming perfect, and letting go of sin to which we are attached.

    However, on a side note: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." (Col 1:24).

    Nothing is lacking in Christ's afflictions, except that they need to be applied to ourselves by his Grace. This perfecting is that application.

    Indulgences don't hinge only on purgatory - they stem from the Church's ability to administer Reconciliation (John 20:21ff)

    False.

    But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of St. Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

    Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it.

    No. God did that when he said in the person of his Son to his 11 remaining diciples "whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven, and whoever's sins you retain are retained".

    And again, this isn't an issue with the RCC. This is an issue with all Christendom before the 16th century.

    Forgiving the kid who broke the window doesn't fix the window. Prying the nails out of wood doesn't fill in the holes. We are to be perfect and white as snow, with not a bit of defilement in us. That happens sometime between the moment we die and th emoment we are resurrected.

    False. You are not required to pray for anyone. You are not required to pray to anyone. These are devotions which - understood properly - are beneficial to the believer.

    Never have they been mandatory.

    Yes, it does. But like "trinity" and "incarnation" the term "purgatory" itself isnt' found in the scriptures.

    The authority comes from him - for all sin is ultimately against him - but the Bible very clearly states that God in Christ said to his 11 "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven, and whoever's sins you retain are retained.

    If you can't grasp that it's because you don't wish to.

    The bible is rather silent on the issue, actually.

    But Jesus does present a parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man. The Rich man was in a place which was painful, but he still had the ability to love for he cared for his brothers. He was in "hades" which does not always mean "hell".

    Nor does it say that such actions are in vain.

    Pax Christi,

    -Justin
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. It does not come from the Bible. It is an INVENTION of man-made tradition NOT ONLY about the imaginary place of torment FROM WHICH you are transferred into heaven BUT ALSO imventions about excess suffering, venial sins, spiritual bank of suffering, plenary indulgences etc.

    #2. It contradicts the teaching in the Gospel on forgiveness through the blood of Christ.

    You confuse the sinful nature of Romans 7 with the character. In 2Cor 5 we find that the new creation is a miracle of the New Birth. "ALL things have become new".

    At the resurrection the saints are raised to life WITHOUT their sinful natures. "No purgatory" needed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Bible model for payment for sins and forgiveness is "Atonement" Lev 16.

    LS claims that NO such atonement (payment) is made by the sinner for his sins in purgatory.

    This was ALREADY posted showing that LS' statement is false

    The Catechism states
    The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:
    Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as
    </font>[/QUOTE][/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "Giving satisfaction" FOR their sins.

    They ATONE for their sins

    They endure the PUNISHMENTs of purgatory - specific to sins they commit in this life.

    In the Gospel the punishment for sin is Hell - fire and brimstone, the lake of fire - the second death.
     
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Actually they are confessing that they themselves are going to the Hell, because they don't believe the Power of the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ. Halfway human understanding is not the Belief of Redemption at the Cross, and the reward for such Unbelief is Hell.
     
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