Purpose Driven Mess

I had a spiritual teacher say this to me about "modern movements":

It's like eating a fish - throw away the bones and and eat the meat.

Every movement has a kernel (or even many kernels) of truth.
Take what is suitable for the NT Church(es) and use it to the glory of God.

HankD

 

All Warren did was to emphasize a biblical teaching that has been neglected in many churches. He never claimed to invent the teaching.

 

The importance of worship and discipleship is undisputed. I do think there is a place for services that are intended to evangelize the lost, as long as there are plenty of opportunities to feed the sheep. It's all about balance.

 

This is what I have been saying all along.... THANK YOU for putting it much better.

The premise of the PDC or PDL has always been scriptural...
I remember the 5 purposes when I was a kid... I remember sermons on them.... PDL is nothing new... and it is not anti-scriptural.

BUt it is a way to teach it.

And when I hear people bashing it, I don't understand why... IT is right there in Acts 2... vs.. 42-47....

Every church that is a NT church should be
Worshipping
Evangelizing
Fellowshipping
Ministering to their members
And Discipling

This has to be done in a balanced fashion or we end up with every sermon evangelizing the members...

 

Look at Acts 2. You have...

A. All of the believers gathered together in one place.
B. Unbelievers amongst them
C. Peter preaching to the crowd...the unbelievers...not the believers .
D. Believers added to the church that day

This is PDC / PDL. There is no "inside / outside" of church. There just "is".

 

A misconcept of "church" has been among us for yrs now..
It is not the building.... it is the people.

 

You guys are killing me. When did I ever say that we shouldn't evangelize? We just shouldn't be evangelizing the church.

Your list is an example of what I'm talking about. You put discipling at the bottom of the list, way below evangelizing.

When I say "inside the church" I don't mean the building. I mean when believers gather together. Yes, there will be unbelievers present, but they are there because the evangelizing has already taken place. The purpose of the "church" gathering together is not to evangelize. The purpose of the "church" is to disciple believers. This should be our emphasis and first priority aside from corporate worship. That is all I'm saying.
I have been at churches where there was very little to no discipleship and what you end up with is a weak, biblically illiterate body that is not equipped to evangelize.

I'm not bashing RW. This is a problem that was around long before RW. Although, I did try to read his Purpose Driven Life and had to stop because of all the scripture chopping he did to try to prove his position.

I am NOT saying that the gospel shouldn't be preached in "church".

What I'm saying is that "church" is a time for believers to gather and be taught, not a time for unbelievers to be evangelized.

What I see happening today is churches trying to bring in the unbeliever by whatever means appeals to him and then doing the evagelizing inside the church meeting.

 

I have not said anything different.

Peter preached to a crowd of unbelievers. That is evangelism. But when the "church" met, it was not a meeting of unbelievers, but believers.

 

I will give you that. He does play fast and loose with the text at times.

Purpose Driven Church was better, IMO.

 

Amy, I am agreeing with you...
There is no significance to the way I listed them...
If you notice, I said they all had to be balanced.. which is what I think you are saying.

There should be equal amount of time, energy, and expense spent on all of the areas.

Some churches neglect evangelism, but overdo it in fellowship events.
Some neglect discipleship, but overdo it in evangelism... (what are you going to do with all the souls that are won? you must equip them)
Some focus all their energy on worship, and neglect the needs of the congregation.
Some focus all their energy on meeting needs, that they forget to disciple in doctrine.

A healthy church has a balanced meal of all the list.
That is what I am saying.

For instance.. when planning out a quarterly calander, I look at the events that we HAVE to have... holiday events, yearly specials, etc... and figure out what category they fall under... And if I see we have a lot of fellowship events scheduled, I will PURPOSELY (pun used intentionally!) schedule other events that balance the diet...

It is called feeding the church a well balanced diet.

Look at your weekly services....

Here are ours...
Sunday School: Both discipleship, and fellowship, worship
Sunday morning worship: Worship, discipleship, fellowship, evangelism (I always present the plan of salvation someway because there are usually a couple lost there)
Sunday evening: Worship, discipleship (Usually no evangelism... because it is mostly Christians that show up... but God has moved before, and evangelism came out)
Wednesday evening: Discipleship

Now do you see any of the 5 purposes neglected? I DO.
Ministry (meeting the needs of the saints) and we are incorporating this in events that are not reguarly scheduled...
Also most of our EVangelism is NOT done in weekly services... It is done outside the church BUILDING... just like Amy is suggesting...

So I look at this weekly schedule and see what we are missing, and plan accordingly...

Here is something to do for practice... Under which of the 5 categories does your Easter services fall?

Interesting enough our church is strange at Easter... we have ONE big service at 7 am... the sunrise service (full service)... and then breakfast, and then a short devotional, and communion after breakfast (around 10)

I have always been used to the normal Easter service at 11, and whole families coming to church then.. .but HERE the whole families show up at 7 am!!!

Strange. So, on Easter we will naturally have Worship, Evangelism, and Fellowship.
That week, I will provide opportunities for discipleship, and ministry.

And when I look back over my life, healthy churches that my dad pastored all had the 5 principles in balance....

The ones the splits took place in were the ones that became lopsided... usually on evangelism... or fellowship.

 

Same here..

 

Tim, I agree with you here. It looks like you are doing a fine job and I didn't mean to offend.
Like I said earlier, what I see happening today is a gross lack of discipleship and Bible teaching in many churches. That is what concerns me. This was a problem in a Presbyterian church I attended when I was a teenager (eons ago :laugh: ). We didn't even need to carry our Bible to church because so little scripture was taught. You can't fight the war without a weapon.
I don't even know what the 5 principles are to tell you the truth. My posts weren't/aren't aimed at RW. I was addressing a problem I have seen in many churches regarding the lack of discipleship. I also think the leadership in our churches need to emphasize the utmost importance of personal Bible study as well as the corporate study. I know people who only open their Bible while in the church services.
This is a passionate subject for me because I love God's word and know in my heart it nourishes, brings us closer to God, teaches us how we should live and empowers us for service.

Keep up the good work! :thumbs:

 

What I stated WAS the church meeting. It WAS believers AND unbelievers.

 

I must have misunderstood you. What is the passage you're referring to?

 

I don't have it in front of me, but I believe it was the beginning of Acts 2...

 

I am one of those strange folks that thinks the "church service" is for proclaiming the gospel.

Sunday School, Training Union, and small group studies are for discipling.

Planned fun activities are for fellowshipping.

I grew up that way, and seems we got it all done. (Worship was what you did in your personal quiet time.)

I do have a question:

Two times in my life preachers have gotten on the purpose-driven bandwagon. Both of those times we were told we had to stop talking about blood sacrifice and the blood of Christ. Is this part of the purpose-driven stuff, or were those pastor's misusing the purpose-driven practice?

 

The time our church did it we EMPHASIzED the blood... especially the week we studied evangelism... I have never seen RW deemphasize it in any of his books...

And if you have on a regular basis lost attending, it would not be out of the ordinary to preach evangelistic messages, but if it is saved people then you are just preaching to the choir... they now need to know how to grow to be Christ-like.

And Amy, you have never offended me... and if you did, I would borrow ABC's rolling pin.:thumbs:

 

You leave my Purpose-Driven rolling pin alone, ya hear? :laugh:

 

That's ok abc, I have my own rolling pin! It belonged to my grandmother and it has just gotten better with age (like me :laugh: )!

Watch out Tim!

:smilewinkgrin:

 

What you're referring to was the day of Pentecost and it was not a church meeting as we know it today as it was the day, I believe, that the "church" was born. The disciples and other believers were gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem when the Spirit fell on them and they were heard speaking in tongues by people who had traveled from other lands to attend the feast of weeks. The believers were not gathered together with the unbelievers. The disciplies went out to speak to the crowds that had gathered and there Peter gave his great message in which 3000 were saved.
But, it was not a gathering of believers and unbelievers in the same meeting.

I think we are in agreement about this subject, so I'm not arguing with you.