1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Quality In Distance Learning

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Martin, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ==As I have said on this board before, the undergraduate level is not my concern. See my post dated 10/18/06 #5.
     
  2. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have my graduate degree. And I still believe that the spiritual condition of our ministers is MUCH more important than their educational credentials.

    IMHO. If they have great credentials, but no love of the Almighty God, then what is the difference between them and the Catholics (Anglo or Roman)? What is the difference between them and the Reformed churches (Presbyterian, Congregationalists, Lutherans, etc). Are we or are we not separatists by nature? Are we or are we not to pride ourselves in our spritiual separation from those around us that just don't get it?

    A degree is worth what it is written on, but the call of God upon His people is what we should glory in. All else is rubbish.
     
  3. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    1
    I obviously disagree with this. I won't try to sway you one way or another but I don't consider ministry as a "profession" or a "job" per se. As I stated, most pastors would rather make a living in other ways. This is where the Lord has placed them and where they will work until he says well done. I pitty any man who pastor's solely by choise because he will do it with out the guidance and leadership of the holy spirit.

    Paul's profession was tent maker and Peter was a fisherman. Most preachers have other skills also, they preach because... I'll let that go, I disagree.

    Again, I disagree when it comes to preaching. Just as I would prefer a doctor who has a good reputation and proven success with a scaple than one who has a lot of education but no time in the operating room. Call me crazy, but I don't care if my painter went to color mixing school, I just want him to be good a painting and I don't really care how he learned.

    I sure wouldn't choose a preacher or am I ever impressed with letters behind his name. I apologize, but you seem to have a worldly way of viewing things. I believe you will know a tree by it's fruit, not by it's name...

    I believe you are confusing preaching with Bible Study. Remember, when we preach we are preaching to a congregation of vast levels of learning capabilities as well as experience with Christ. Just as you wouldn't stick a T-Bone steak in front of a new born baby, we have to serve the congregation with a meal consumable to the majority.

    Bible study is where you group people together and teach to their level. Me personally, I spend far more time preparing for bible study than I do for a sermon. This is where I want them to get their fill, question me, challenge me, divide the word by the word so that we all grow from the lesson. I am not too proud to write your question down and bring you an answer the following week. I don't pretend to know it all but I do feel obligated to the members I serve.

    Now if you are not being feed sufficiantly at the Church where you fellowship then you should seek a new family. Start by speaking to your pastor to see if he can suggest other places to worship. Many a pastor sent folks to study under my father while he was alive. Too me, it takes a true man of God to admit you seek more than he can give than to remain prideful and the price of the believer.

    Lastly, you are placing a lot of the blame on the shoulders of the preacher. Just as you don't starving people on the soup kitchens or free lunch counters you don't blame ignorant christians on the preacher. I believe in freewill and if he ain't cutting it, you can either vote him out or move on. It's about self accountability when you get to the gates, not who can I blame.
     
  4. Sly Fox

    Sly Fox New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    0
    There was a significant difference between the correspondence schools Pre-Mid 80s and what Liberty began to do with LUSLL. And yes it was before most state schools began the practice. But if you consider the Luther Rice distance learning up to strandards of today's times then more power to ya.
     
  5. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ==I am not talking about entering the ministry for money (etc). I am simply saying that the ministry is a job, it is a profession. If you get a pay check it is a job. The ministry is one of many callings God places on people's lives.

    ==You say that, but I am willing to bet (if I were a betting man) that you would not go to a doctor who earned his degree from an unaccredited correspondence school whose standards are not as high as, let's say, UNC/Chapel Hill, Duke Medical School, UCLA Medical School, or another fine school of medicine. Why not? Because education "does" matter. Doctors gain experience in medical school so that, when they graduate, they have both book knowledge and experience. In both areas they will continue to learn, even after graduation, thanks to required courses and daily practice. The ministry is no different.

    O, and yes, both are callings. God calls people to be preachers, missionaries, teachers, doctors, and even lawyers. Each of those are jobs and callings.

    ==That's nice, but lets stick with known facts ok? A man who has no schooling can be a fine preacher. I don't doubt that. However can he answer questions on difficult doctrines, church history, apologetics? Probably not. Why is that a problem?

    1. The Bible commands believers to be ready to give a defense (apology) for the faith. Certainly pastors should be able to do this on a level above the average pew warmer.

    2. Pastors today will get questions about those things. Why? Books, Movies, TV, and the Internet.

    3. Jesus sent His disciples through a training period before they were sent out. In many ways the 12 got a crash course in theology and ministry during the three (or so) years that they walked with Christ.

    It is not about letters or degrees, it is about having the ability to ministry in a post-modern world. It is about getting the best training possible to be a theologian and minister.


    ==The preacher's sermons should be Bible studies. I know of "no" Biblical example of the type of sermons that many preachers preach today. Part of the problem is that many preachers are preaching to "felt needs", another part of the problem is that many preachers don't have enough study behind them to be able to dig into the meat of Scripture. This is true of men who have no education and men who have MDiv degree. Problem is that some MDiv programs, at some schools, require very little Biblical Studies courses, a minimum of church history, and little if any languages.


    ==Most sermons I hear are, at best, in the baby food category (maybe just a step above milk). Very little meat. Look at John MacArthur's sermons. That is a good example of the kind of preaching that needs to be heard. It teaches the Bible, church history, apologetics, etc. It is not just life lessons, nor is it evangelism sermons every single week. It goes deeper into the meat of the Word so that those who hear actually learn something.

    If someone attends a good school (institute, undergraduate, or graduate level) where they learn how to study the Bible, the languages, church history, apologetics (etc) from the best teachers/preachers then they are better prepared to teach their churches better. My point is that without some sort of education preachers, no matter how good, just don't have the knowledge base to be as effective as they could be in the modern church. I also would say that this is why ministry students should attend the schools that actually teach the Bible, and they should choose a Biblical Studies/Theology program instead of a ministry program. Why? So they can learn to go deep into the teachings of Scripture (theology).




    ==That's great and I don't know any minister, worth his salt, that would be any different. I don't know what your sermons are like. I would hope they are educational to those who are listening. I hope they are learning the Word of God.

    ==Good advice. My pastor, while not perfect, does a great job. Interestingly enough he only holds an associates degree from Mid-America Seminary. His "MA" and "ThD" are from Covington. So I am not saying that every pastor should get a MDiv degree from Southeastern, or a ThM degree from Dallas, or a MA degree from Trinity Evangelical. No. I am just saying that pastors should seek out some level of education/training. Even if it is only working through a home-based Bible Institute (like Liberty University's Liberty Home Bible Institute). I am also saying that if "anyone", pastors included, are going to earn a graduate degree they should only do so through an accredited program. My pastor wishes he had done that. He does not refer to himself as "Dr", why? Well first he is not the kind of man to go around calling himself "Dr" and secondly he knows that his "ThD" was not on the level of a "PhD" from Dallas (etc). However when he earned those degrees the distance learning field was not as good as it is today. So he had a valid excuse. Today there are no valid excuses for getting a graduate level degree from an unaccredited school.
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    That's nice, but lets stick with known facts ok? A man who has no schooling can be a fine preacher. I don't doubt that. However can he answer questions on difficult doctrines, church history, apologetics? Probably not. Why is that a problem?
    ------------------------------------------

    When I was starting out in 1945, men got the fastest education they could get so they could minister. Further education either came from self study, or men went back to advanced schooling.

    This is not to say we could not answer difficult questions in all the areas you mentioned. It depended on the man and how he applied himself. I dare to say that we spent more time in the books than many modern preachers who rely on what they were taught in school.

    We cannot blanket all preachers. Consider A.W. Pink, who had no formal training, and yet wrote the finest books on the doctrines of the faith. I could name any number of men who had no degrees and excelled. Mr. Spurgeon had no degrees and his books on theology and Bible are almost countless. His pen has made an image on almost every preacher in Baptist circles.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, men of God should study, study, and study some more.

    But, saying that a man of God must do so in your school is a bunch of modern chains placed upon men of God by men and not by God.

    Should men of God be professional in their attitude towards God? Yes. Should our ethic stop there? Never - God deserves so much more.
     
  8. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Liberty fan!


    Sly Fox, you are sadly misinformed on your history of DE. You are just wrong. I have followed DE (formerly external degree programs, UWW, correspondence, etc.) since the 1970's. Contact John Bear, Marcie Thorson, or Steve Levicoff and I believe all will tell you that you are way off base. In the religious area, Jason Baker (http://www.bakersguide.com/) is the guy with the scoop.


    LUSLL was the brainchild of Ron Godwin, who was formerly Dean at PCC, later served as Executive VP of Insight magazine and The Washington Times (both Moonie owned publications) and is now Executive VP and Chief Operations Officer of Liberty University. LUSLL was founded when Godwin, who has a Ph.D. in higher education from Florida State, went to Liberty from PCC. (Perhaps Godwin had envisioned a DE program for PCC but my memory may be a little faulty here. I don’t have a clear recollection.) By this time, DE was an established, although evolving, and expanding phenomenon.

    Much of the DE movement was fueled by start-ups who dared go outside of accredited guidelines and implement innovative ideas. (BTW, this is why I am opposed to a stranglehold on higher education by the accreditors—non-accredited schools can produce new and worthwhile ideas that are not accepted by the stifling establishmentarians.) Some schools, such as the University of Sarasota (now part of Argosy University), went on to achieve accreditation whereas others, such as Clayton University and Columbia Pacific, fell along the way. The established schools that pioneered DE were Antioch College, Norwich University and Goddard College. Union Institute (Union Institute and University) was an early consortium of universities to offer DE graduate degrees. Walden and NOVA (both private accredited universities) were doing DE degrees long before Liberty. Of course, there were others including NY Regents College (Excelsior College), Charter Oak, Thomas Edison, et. al. DE was on the rise before LUSLL and LU just caught the wave.

    BTW, the traditional correspondence school concept, except for degree mills and some DETC career schools, was in decline by the 1970-1980’s. Some universities, such as the University of Nebraska and the University of Minnesota, did offer extensive correspondence courses (no degrees) but many of these incorporated tapes and other media. Television courses and short residency or seminar courses were big. The new concept was external degrees. Also, the “University Without Walls” idea was big. DE replaced external degree vocabulary.

    If anyone has the claim to pioneering Christian DE, it is Luther Rice or Trinity. Sly Fox, your disparaging sly remark about Luther Rice is just gauche. Your partisan posts sound rather biased. A retraction would serve you well and speak positively of your character.
     
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada had a distance learning program in the 1940's to allow remote areas in Canada access to advanced education. I don't know if they were the first, but they were the first in Canada. It helped many a remote area to educate and train teachers.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim

    Wasn't that LDE? Long distance ed?

    ;)

     
  11. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ahead of the curve?

    Ahead of the curve? What do you mean specifically? Portfolio assessment? This was around long before LUSLL. Print syllabi? This has long been standard fare. Audio and video lectures? Common stuff.


    Are they technologically advanced? Are they doing podcasts? Streaming video? Online tutoring? Online testing? Eastern Oregon was offering calculus with online testing over a decade ago. The BJU LINC satellite technology with testing and talk back capabilities seems to trump LUSLL technology that I have seen (served as proctor for students). Have you seen the BJU LINC studios? Very hi-tech! Of course, University of SC was doing closed-circuit TV with talk back between Greenville and Columbia, SC for a M.S. in engineering degree during the 1970’s.
     
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    That power curve is that's like the guy in the saturn saying that he's gonna beat the corvette, because he has got him off of the start . . . .

    Not a chance . . . unless God freezes the engine . . .

    ;)
     
  13. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    ___

    I don't know about the LR DE program. While I'm happy to learn new tricks , I think the passion , the ability, and the opportunity to teach go a long way toward providing solid DE instruction whether the latest technology is employed or not.

    I found this to be true too in 35 years of public secondary school teaching.

    Bill
     
  14. Sly Fox

    Sly Fox New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow! I certainly touched a nerve for a certain South Carolinian in this thread. I challenge you to find where I disaparaged Luther Rice. I just stated there was a clear difference between what they were doing in 1985 with what is generally acceptible today. That doesn't mean they aren't doing a terrific job in 2006 ... just that two decades ago their program was not of the calibre of what was launched at that time using technology.

    Are you denying that LUSLL brought distance learning from the fringe into the mainstream from a national perspective?

    For the record, I am not saying Liberty is the penultimate DL program available today. I was just trying to remind those in this thread of us its place in the growth of the format.

    You SC boys sure are skittish. Keep an eye on that blood pressure for everyone's sake.

    :laugh:
     
  15. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who is skittish?

    I'm not skittish. It seems that my double-barrel blast skeared (read scared) a little ole skittish fox. No, LUSLL did not bring distance learning into the national mainstream perspective. LUSLL was not the first or even a major player. Walden, NOVA, NY Regents, Union, Charter Oak, Thomas Edison, Norwich University, Goddard College, Antioch College, etc. trumped them hands down. As I intimated previously, your view is limited, highly partisan and provincial.

    BTW, don't worry about this little ole SC boy. He's doing fine. I just spent last week bear hunting and this week it is deer hunting, so I won't bother about shooting a fox. Now, a coyote is a different story. :tongue3:
     
    #35 paidagogos, Oct 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2006
  16. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    LUSLLL was a major player in distance learning and brought it to far more people than the schools you listed.
     
  17. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    I almost don't like shooting coyotes . . . pieces just go everywhere.

    ;)
     
  18. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    What do you mean?

    Well, there's no sense in beating around the bush--you're wrong. How are you defining a major player? Early innovator? Leader? Pioneer? If so, the schools that I listed beat LUSLL by a decade in time and a ton of new ideas. What new ideas did LUSLL pioneer? When? They saw the wave and rode it at its crest. By numbers? If so, the University of Phoenix dwarfs LUSLL in enrollment and graduates. Technology? I've seen nothing especially innovative and amazing as a proctor for LUSLL.

    So, I see no substantiation for your assertion. Your comparison seems to be more in the area of religious schools. If so, then LUSLL is big stuff but it's a big frog in a small pond. Excelsior College, formerly NY Regents, enrolls over twenty-five thousand students which exceeds LUSLL's enrollment. The fifteen to twenty thousand students, if that many, of LUSLL is small pickings compared to the one hundred twenty something thousand of UNISA.

    Why do we always have to say that we are the first, the biggest and the best? It amounts to little more than self-aggrandization. It's the same spirit and attitude to a lesser degree for which we criticize Hyles-Anderson--our approach is just a little more sophisticated. Some of us still remember the 1970's when Jack and Jerry were doing similar things and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between them. Admittedly, Jack and Jerry took separate forks in the road but they were on the same road at one time.
     
    #38 paidagogos, Oct 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2006
  19. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did Lusll throw a lot of money into an established DE arena? Yes.

    Does that mean they created DE? NO, unless you believe that the Russian scientists created the light bulb, the train, the airplane, and many other wonderful inventions . . . Sikorsky was a major player in helicopters . . . the other areas were not created by Russians.

    And LU did not start DE or really innovate much.

    They have done a good job.

    But, let's not credit them with things they did not do. IMHO.
     
  20. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paid, you need to calm down.

    My statement is not wrong. In the context of Baptist seminaries/colleges, LUSLLL was and is a major player. Didn't say first, best, most innovative, etc. Simply said a "major player."

    You can't deny that. The schools you mentioned are unfamiliar to most on this board. No one knew what University of Phoenix was 25 years ago.

    But LUSLLL, marketed by the Thomas Road Baptist Church and the Old Time Gospel Hour, and backed by Liberty University was big stuff! They led the way in making distance learning acceptable at a graduate school level!

    For the purposes of this thread, they were a major player.
     
Loading...