1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Question about the Kingdom

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Oct 3, 2007.

Top Posters
Page 2 of 4
  1. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with you (apart from the "flirting", because I have believed the thousand years of Revelation to be figurative for as long as I can remember.
     
    #21 David Lamb, Oct 5, 2007
  2. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you take everything in Revelation to be figurative?
     
    #22 2 Timothy2:1-4, Oct 5, 2007
  3. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    0

    I agee there is no difference.
     
    #23 2 Timothy2:1-4, Oct 5, 2007
  4. exscentric

    exscentric Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,366
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just a thought.

    " I agee there is no difference."

    If you assume they are the same then this is true, however if you can find any indication that KOFH might refer to lost and saved together then John 3.3 might show you a slight difference.

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
     
    #24 exscentric, Oct 5, 2007
  5. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    No.

    Do you take everything in Revelation to be literal?
     
    #25 J.D., Oct 5, 2007
  6. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    Thanks for the support. The teachers of a literal millennium have some compelling arguments, but it seems to me that all the literalist views I've seen so far, including Gill's, have glaring inconsistencies. For example he (Gill) ties every vision to some literal event, in a linear time sequence. Everything holds together till he gets to the final battle of Gog/Magog (whom he identifies as the Turks or Mohammedans). When it is said that "fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them" he conveniently switches to the figurative interpretation, saying that this "fire" is representative of God impressing guilt on their conscience.

    If Revelation contains figurative language - and no sane person can deny that it does - why is it essential to take that one phrase, "a thousand years", literally?
     
    #26 J.D., Oct 5, 2007
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, false. If the MK with its sin and death were the beginning, it would continue sin, death, and Satan. But there is a war with Satan at the end and this earth and MK is "dissolved" to make way for the eternal kingdom.

    skypair
     
    #27 skypair, Oct 5, 2007
  8. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    The MK is planned to show that even in the presence of Christ in a perfect world, there is free will and unbelief.

    As to scripture, read Rv 20 showing the MK and then read Rev 21-22:5 regarding the EK.

    skypair
     
    #28 skypair, Oct 5, 2007
  9. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, "the kingdoms of Christ shall become the kingdoms of our God." 1Cor 15:24-28 -- THEN the EK.

    skypair
     
    #29 skypair, Oct 5, 2007
  10. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think you mean that free will and unbelief can exist in a nearly perfect world.

    And I'm guessing that what you are trying to say is that the MK is near perfect, and the EK is perfect. Yes?
     
    #30 J.D., Oct 5, 2007
  11. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    You may find it helpful to read "[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Revelation Spiritually Understood" by [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Charles D. Alexander. It is available free online at: http://www.allbygrace.com/alexrevelationmainpage.html To give you an idea of the book, having listed and briefly described the four ways of interpreting Revelation (Preterist, Historical, Futurist, and Spiritual) he writes:[/FONT]


    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THE KEY IS THE CHURCH[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The key to all the mysteries of the Book of Revelation is found as we ought to expect) in the first chapter, where the occasion of the writing of the Book, by whom dictated, and for whom intended is made crystal clear. The theory so widely held today that the Book has no relevance to the Church apart from the first three chapters, is so utterly at variance with the opening address that the wonder is that it has ever obtained credence. Against this extraordinary conclusion we plead the following:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. The blessing pronounced upon all who read this Book, who hear its words and who keep its sayings (verse 3).[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. The events of the Book were imminent at the time of writing; “The things which must shortly come to pass” – “The time is at hand” (verses 1 and 3).[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. The Book as a whole, and not in part, is dedicated to ‘the even churches which are in Asia’ - which we hope to show can only mean the sevenfold or complete Church of our Lord then existing and to exist to the end of time (verse 4).[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. The special relationship which John the apostle bore to the universal Church as her brother and companion in tribulation (v.9).[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5.The vision of Christ as the guardian, guide and avenger of the Church in all her conflicts and tribulation in the world (v.12-20).[/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    ​
    [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just be careful of the typos - whoever transcribed the book for the Internet seems to have made a few. For example, "the even churches" in the excerpt above should of course be "the seven churches".


    [/FONT]
     
    #31 David Lamb, Oct 5, 2007
  12. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    0
    I asked that question because you said that what what you seen in Revelation you didn't see any reason to take it any other way than fiurative and then listed passages that should be taken in that way. It appeared that you saw the whole book as fgurative. The fact that some language is figurative is not evidence that Rev 20:1-6 should be taken that way as well.

    This passage makes amill position difficult because Satan is to be bound during this time. Can a case be made to suggest Satan is currently bound right now? Or how does satan being bound in a supposed figurative language play out?
     
    #32 2 Timothy2:1-4, Oct 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2007
  13. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    0
    Passage of scripture please.
     
    #33 2 Timothy2:1-4, Oct 5, 2007
  14. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you not believe that unbelief is sinful? How can a world with unbelief be "perfect"?
     
    #34 David Lamb, Oct 5, 2007
  15. tjfkbrawny

    tjfkbrawny New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2007
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    You may mean in the presence of a perfect ruler who rules with a rod of iron, there is sin.. It is not a perfect world.
     
    #35 tjfkbrawny, Oct 5, 2007
  16. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    Obviously it's not a perfect world, and I don't think it has anything to do with free will. HOWEVER, I do think that for once in a blue moon, sp is onto something. This is pure speculation, not scripture, but I also wonder if one of the purposes of the MK (other than to fulfill the promise), is to demonstrate to man how depraved man really is. Imagine a world where there can be no doubt about who Jesus is. He's right there, for all to see. Creation is blessed, too. And satan is bound for almost the whole time.

    Yet when satan is loosed, he doesn't seem to have much trouble rounding up a rebellion. Why is that?
     
    #36 npetreley, Oct 5, 2007
  17. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    2 Timothy2:1-4: I asked that question because you said that what what you seen in Revelation you didn't see any reason to take it any other way than fiurative and then listed passages that should be taken in that way. It appeared that you saw the whole book as fgurative.
    I didn't mean that Revelation is entirely figurative in an absolute sense, but I can see where you might have thought I meant that. The fact that some language is figurative is not evidence that Rev 20:1-6 should be taken that way as well. But if the genre of the passage is figurative, there needs to be a compelling reason to take a particular portion as literal.

    This passage makes amill position difficult because Satan is to be bound during this time. Can a case be made to suggest Satan is currently bound right now? Or how does satan being bound in a supposed figurative language play out? I think the amil position on this is that Satan is bound (prohibited) from executing his destructive will on the Church, unless permitted by God for some greater purpose, and even then Satan is limited to specifically what God allows. Satan's relation to Job is an example of this principle. Do you believe that Satan will be bodily bound by a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, I just want us to think about these things.
     
    #37 J.D., Oct 5, 2007
  18. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    Now that you mention it, that used to be my own understanding of the MK. I guess I've been away from dispensational thinking long enough to forget some things.

    One of the most important things to understand about man is his continual potential to sin. Because sin is in him, he will committ sin when the opportunity comes along. Therefore, man is NEVER, not for one second, righteous in himself.
     
    #38 J.D., Oct 5, 2007
  19. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Satan will be bound; he is not currently bound.

    2. Amil could venture bound (prohibited) from executing his destructive will on the Church, but Satan is not bound and he continues to execute his destructive will on the church right now.

    3. How do we account for cruelty and persecutions against the church over the years?

    4. Plus, the text says Satan is bound so that he would not deceive the nations, not the church.
     
    #39 TCGreek, Oct 5, 2007
  20. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    0

    I see no reason not to. I will assume you are not suggesting that I have not thought about it.
     
    #40 2 Timothy2:1-4, Oct 5, 2007
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 4
Loading...